Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 32, biking the Baja Divide. And I'm your host, tom Butler. I will be doing a 60 mile ride on the Centennial Trail this weekend, starting in Snohomish, washington. The last time I did this route was on my 60th birthday. There were a lot of differences. For that first trip, I was on a fitness bike instead of the road bike I will ride this time.

Tom Butler: 0:40

I expect this change to make a significant difference. I'd only been riding a few months at the point when I rode the trail the first time. I know a heck of a lot more about how my body handles riding longer distances. Now. We did an 11 mile per hour average on that ride. I think I'll do better this weekend. Last time it was pretty cold and we hit a stretch where we had to ride through some fresh snow. This time, I think the weather is going to be excellent. It is possible that it will be a bit on the warm side, but I believe there is going to be plenty of shade and we will be enjoying the warmth.

Tom Butler: 1:13

Even with all the advantages that I'll have this time over Lass, this will be the longest ride I've done in a while, so I'm not 100% sure I will do okay. Last time my knee bursitis flared up for the first time and it was at about 50 miles, and afterwards I had a good amount of cramping. I will be very disappointed if I get a repeat of either of those problems. We're doing the ride a couple weeks before Kelly turns 60, so we're starting a tradition of doing that ride around turning 60. It'll be really fun if we can find others who want to do this in the future. The Centennial Trail isn't a huge challenge because the trail is quite flat. There is 1,200 feet of elevation gain over the whole trail and it's a rails-to-trails project, so the climbs aren't steep. One objective of this ride is to test a new feeding strategy for Seattle to Portland. I want to stress here that I'm not telling you what to do. In fact, there are some things going on with my metabolism that make it better that you don't do what I'm doing.

Tom Butler: 2:11

I've decided to use dates as a primary source of carbohydrates on long rides. My plan is to keep a steady intake of carbohydrates by having a few dates every half hour. I'm intrigued by dates for a number of reasons. Of course, they are a natural source of carbohydrates. The fiber content means that the sugar from dates is more slowly absorbed, so that can prevent a sugar crash that comes from more processed options. Dates are rich in potassium and magnesium, so they help provide electrolytes, and also dates are rich in polyphenols and antioxidants, which can reduce oxidative stress in the body. And an added bonus is that dates are a source of a little allulose, and the more I learn about allulose, the more intrigued I am with it.

Tom Butler: 2:56

Here is how I came up with my current plan for what to eat when cycling. I kind of arbitrarily picked 600 calories an hour that I expect to burn. Actually, I think it could be anywhere from 500 to 700 calories an hour Over the day. I'm thinking I will burn around 3,600 calories riding and other caloric output. I'll have a good breakfast and a good lunch halfway through the ride, so I think I need to take in about 1,200 calories while riding. I'll have one protein bar between breakfast and lunch and one between lunch and the end of the ride. The bars are Think brand and are sugar-free. That means they aren't a quick source of carbohydrates. The bars are 230 calories each, so that brings my caloric deficit down to 640. When I looked it up, it appears that dates are worth 25 calories apiece depending on the type of date. So I figure 26 dates over the day will do it. So that would be like 2-3 dates every half hour. I am comfortable with taking in that many dates. I think I've been eating enough dates recently that it won't be a problem for my intestinal tract, but if I'm wrong about that, it's not going to be ideal.

Tom Butler: 4:04

Another thing that I will test on the ride is a new electrolyte strategy. A couple of weeks ago I talked about using a homemade electrolyte mixture. I've decided not to rely on that for longer rides until I've had more experience with it. As a reminder, I'm just sharing what I'm doing, but it is an advice for what you should do and there might be reasons why you shouldn't do what I'm doing. As an advice for what you should do and there might be reasons why you shouldn't do what I'm doing, I'm going to use the Electrolyte brand liquid IV, but do some modifications to it.

Tom Butler: 4:31

First off, it has no magnesium. The daily magnesium recommendation when active is 500 milligrams for men. I would really like to nail down just how much magnesium I really need, but for now it's still based on some assumptions. There doesn't seem to be much risk of taking too much magnesium because it is easy for the kidneys to get rid of excess. I've decided to take in 100 milligrams of magnesium an hour, so that will have to be added in to the liquid IV.

Tom Butler: 4:59

A packet of liquid IV has 350 milligrams of sodium. However, I think I'm sweating out closer to 2,000 milligrams per hour. I sweat more than most people and I drink a lot of water when I'm done on a hot day. My skin is very salty and there are salt deposits where drops of sweat have landed on the bike. The Himalayan salt we use has 520 milligrams of sodium in a quarter of a teaspoon, has 520 milligrams of sodium in a quarter of a teaspoon, so I will add a quarter teaspoon to what is in the liquid IV packet. I picked up some really small Ziploc bags that work well for electrolyte powder, so I will use those. Overall, my main objective is take in enough electrolytes so that I don't cramp, and I'll be really excited if, after the ride is over, I have no cramping whatsoever.

Tom Butler: 5:49

Another big goal for the ride is to see if Kelly's battery can last 60 miles. I think that a metric century is likely the longest we will ride in a day and I do think her battery can last like 62, 63 miles of what a metric century is, but we need to verify that. We have done 50 miles a few times and it seems like she's had plenty battery left. It will help that this route is flat. She doesn't need much assistance at all if she's on the flat and especially if there's a little bit of a downhill. While her bike has regenerative braking, I don't think it will come into play much on this trip. It'll be interesting to see if she gets much braking generation at all. I'm very confident that she'll make it to 50 miles and after that the remaining 10 miles is mostly downhill, so even if the battery is out, she can most likely make it back to the car. There's just so many things to be excited about this trip and I can't wait to get rolling. Another thing I'll share is I got bad news recently that the construction has been delayed on the bridge that is out on the foothills trail. That means I will not have a safe route down to the valley until this fall and that potentially impacts my plan for the first cycling over 60 ride that is scheduled for September 14th. I'm going to move forward, believing that the route will be open by the 14th of September, but I might have to pivot if it doesn't look good by the end of August.

Tom Butler: 7:25

I've interviewed a few people lately about their adventures riding on multi-day trips, and this episode is also about a bike trip, but this is a bit different because it's an off-road trip. Max Rosenberg joined me to talk about his ride on the Baja Divide, a 1,730-mile backpacking route that connects the Pacific Ocean and the Sea of Cortez. I'm always thinking about getting to the place where I can do more off-road discovery. However, I think the Baja Divide is definitely a bit outside my abilities. Here's our conversation. I'm here once again to talk about a cycling adventure. Thanks, max Rosenberg, for joining me and sharing your experience. You're welcome. I have a strong feeling that you're going to be talking about something that will become another ride to add to my list of rides that I want to do someday. But let's first start here. What is your earliest memory of the bicycle?

Max Rosenberg: 8:44

Oh, my earliest memory is when I was probably four or five, learning how to ride a bike. We lived on a little bit of a hill and I remember I had training wheels. When I finally did learn how to balance, I remember just riding around the neighborhood and feeling like I was flying.

Tom Butler: 9:04

You know, I think that's the wonderful memory, you know, of that freedom of like the expanded world that you get when you can get on a bike, and I love that.

Max Rosenberg: 9:17

Yeah, yeah, definitely I. Just I remember that it was like whoa, this is cool.

Tom Butler: 9:23

Now did you keep cycling as you grew older? How did your relationship with cycling change as you got older?

Max Rosenberg: 9:31

Right, I rode my bike a lot for transportation throughout my childhood. I used it for a paper route to deliver papers. In high school I had some friends that were starting to do longer distance cycling. I grew up in the Bay Area of California and so we did some longer rides up on Skyline Boulevard, but I never was like into racing or too serious, it was mostly just transportation. Then I went to UC Davis as an undergrad and that is a real bicycle town Really. You know everybody rides their bike there. So I've always it's always been part of my life as transportation, but not really what I say. I became a cyclist until my 45th birthday when I split my meniscus running.

Tom Butler: 10:25

Oh, okay.

Max Rosenberg: 10:26

Yeah, after two years of physical therapy it wasn't getting any better, so they didn't know it was split when they did an MRI. Finally I went and had surgery and I remember, during the operation, the doctor, goes.

Max Rosenberg: 10:38

Oh well, yeah, you've got a meniscus tear and and oh, that's almost down to the bone. I go. What do you mean? Down to the bone? Well, well, you know your cartilage is worn. I think you should stop running and take up the bicycle. That's what the surgeon, during the operation to fix my torn meniscus said, and that's what I did. So I quit running and started cycling for exercise.

Tom Butler: 11:04

Did you feel like you were missing something by not running, or did you find what you were experiencing, the enjoyment you had of running, that the bike provided that?

Max Rosenberg: 11:15

You know I can say that I missed running a lot and it took me a while to replace that feeling with the bike, because I was a pretty serious runner and I like to run out in the woods and everything and go on. You know trips go to Washington DC and run around and look at all the memorials in the early morning and it was easy, you know, to run wherever you went because all you needed were running shoes. You didn't need a bike. But once I accepted the fact that I wasn't going to be a runner anymore, I got into cycling and I've never looked back.

Tom Butler: 11:51

I've really enjoyed it what we are talking about today is a trip you did on the baja divide. First off, can you talk about that ride? How did you hear about it? What kind of attracted you to that ride?

Max Rosenberg: 12:09

I've been a cycle tourist for quite a while. I'll kind of give you a brief background on my touring history. I started touring when I was still working and there were a group of fellows where I worked and we would go on what we called the shakedown ride every year. Usually it was a three or four day tour around Oregon and we cycled all over Oregon and part of Washington and Northern California. Then, when I retired, the first thing I really wanted to do was ride down the Pacific coast. So I did that and just absolutely loved it. The feeling of freedom, you know, just having everything you need and nothing you don't all on your bicycle. It's just an incredible feeling of freedom in two parts In 2017, the western half, and then 2019, the eastern half. Then COVID hit.

Max Rosenberg: 13:12

During COVID, I was invited to do what's called a bikepacking trip. It's kind of like bike touring, but it's, they say, off-road, on dirt or gravel roads, and I was invited to do that and I went on a four-day trip with a bike. That really wasn't very suited for it, but I went, and I was invited to do that, and I went on a four-day trip with a bike that really wasn't very suited for it, but I went and I just loved it because it combined bike touring with, essentially with backpacking and I've always liked to backpack, I've always loved the wilderness and the woods and the mountains. So that one trip combining, which was my first bikepacking trip in central Oregon, I just fell in love with the sport of bikepacking again because it combined my two, two of my favorite things to do, which one being cycling and the other being backpacking in the woods and in the mountains. I kind of progressed from there. I did the first four-day trip and then, I think later that summer, I did a route called the Oregon Outback, which was six or seven days and that goes from the east side of the Cascades in Oregon, from Southern Oregon, up to the Columbia River. Totally enjoyed that. Oh, and in between there I got a bike that was better suited for bikepacking.

Max Rosenberg: 14:28

Then I was motivated to do a ride called the Great Divide mountain bike route, which is an adventure cycling route that goes from Banff, british Columbia, to the Mexico-US border in New Mexico. That was a long route that was 2,400 miles, and I was pretty motivated to do that. I watched a lot of videos online. There's a fellow by the name of Ryan Van Duser, who likes to motivate people to get off their couches. He rode the Great Divide and I watched his videos and I said I'm going to do that. I wound up writing the Great Divide for two months, between July and August of 2022. And then it was just what was I going to do next? And I heard about the Baja Divide and that looked really intriguing and I decided to do it, even though it was a little bit scary, because it's quite a bit more difficult than the Great Divide route in the United States.

Tom Butler: 15:35

I'd like to cover a couple things here. Can you talk a little bit more about that first time that you're like getting off the pavement? That you're like getting off the pavement, were you thinking that you know, okay, this is a different thing to do. Or were you thinking that I, you know, I think that would meet my interests more than actually being on pavement?

Max Rosenberg: 16:00

yeah. So I was invited to this trip in central o and I think it was in 2019 or 20,. No, it was 2020. I really didn't know too much what to expect, but what I really liked immediately was the fact that there are no cars, or very, very few cars. So one of the things about I remember very clearly about the Transamerica route, particularly the eastern half, was by the time I finished it, I loved the trip. I absolutely loved it. You know, I felt, you know, totally fit and alive and free, all the great things that cycle touring brings. But I was pretty tired of dealing with traffic. But I was pretty tired of dealing with traffic and I remember that I was kind of relieved to be done because, you know, after seven weeks of, you know, constantly looking in your mirror to make sure the car is going to pull over and not hit you, it becomes a little stressful after a while. Yeah, and so that's the first thing I really noticed about riding on the back, you know, on dirt roads, was that there was essentially no traffic.

Tom Butler: 17:30

So you learned on that trip that your setup wasn't ideal for that kind of riding or that kind of long-term riding. Maybe can you talk about what went into your choice of bike after that. What? What were the things that you started looking for?

Max Rosenberg: 17:37

yeah, I did that first trip on a bike friday. Are you familiar with a bike friday? I'm not okay. It's a 20 inch folding travel bike oh, wow, wow, okay, and it was the bike that I always toured on.

Max Rosenberg: 17:50

It's a very good bike. They're built here in Eugene Oregon, so they're a local brand and but they fit into a normal size suitcase. And so I had done all my touring on this folding travel bike called a bike Friday and I really did not want another bike. Bike called a bike Friday and I really did not want another bike. So I put a little bit wider tires on this bike Friday and took it on the trip and the woman that organized it, she's gone. You can't take that and I go. Well, yes, I can. And we were both right Uh, she was right that it probably wasn't the best bike. You know the. The wheels were just too small and they weren't wide enough. But I did it. It was definitely more suited for pavement than Bike Friday.

Max Rosenberg: 18:36

I fell in love with the idea of bikepacking on that trip so I started to research what would be a better bike. I don't remember how I finally landed on a Surly Bridge Club, but that's what I landed on. It can take either 27 and a half inch wheels or 29 inch wheels and it has mountain bike gears, a very upright riding position, hydraulic disc brakes, which are very, very important for riding loaded off-road, because you have some really steep descents and I just you know that was another problem with my old bike Friday. It didn't have disc brakes so long steep descents were pretty hard on the hands. So I don't remember exactly how I landed on that bike, but that's what I landed on, the Surly Bridge Clubhead.

Tom Butler: 19:28

It was one of the criteria. You were looking for something that would take gear on it, that you could put racks on it and things like that versatile to put different kinds of racks on it, but primarily what you're looking for for.

Max Rosenberg: 19:54

I call this type of bike an off-road touring bike, so it's essentially a touring bike, but designed for dirt, gravel, rock, sand. So it's kind of a. It's like a touring bike but with mountain bike tires and wheels and mountain bike gear.

Tom Butler: 20:06

Yeah, gotcha.

Max Rosenberg: 20:07

Yeah. So I was looking for a bike that had very low gearing, so something like a mountain bike, so you know you, you could climb up very steep trails with a heavy load and something that that had the ability to have very, very wide tires, because off-road, particularly in sand or loose rock or cobbles, the bigger the tire you have, the lower the inflation pressure, the smoother the ride, the better the traction, and it's just wider is better.

Tom Butler: 20:44

The one thing that I always think about is if I'm going to climb up a steep grade, I'm going to go pretty slow. I am not a strong climber. And if I'm carrying a bunch of gear on a bike and I'm going I don't know three, four miles an hour up a hill, it seems like there's an element of trying to just stay upright, going that slow when you start going through medium-sized gravel or sand or things like that. Is that an issue? Do you find that to be the case?

Max Rosenberg: 21:21

Yeah, there's a point where walking is better. So this whole sport is called bikepacking. Your listeners probably know that, but if they don't, that's what it's called. It's essentially touring on dirt roads and cheap trails and things like that, sometimes single track, but mostly it's gravel roads, dirt roads, cheap trails. So there's a certain point where, particularly if the road is very rough, if it's like rocky, you're just better off walking because you're going so slowly that you are more susceptible to falling down. And so that's what people in this sport call hike a bike. That's what people in this sport call hike a bike.

Tom Butler: 22:05

So now you're hiking with your bike Right right.

Max Rosenberg: 22:09

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 22:10

And that's just something that you expect to do from time to time.

Max Rosenberg: 22:12

it sounds like yes, yes, you do. There is a website, bikepackingcom. These fellows from Colorado, but also Mexico, they've kind of taken it upon themselves to be kind of a receptory of all different kinds of bikepacking routes all over the world, and when you're researching a route, it'll tell you the percent rideable and that implies that the other percent is not rideable.

Tom Butler: 22:40

Yeah, okay.

Max Rosenberg: 22:41

Yeah, so you're going to expect that you're going to be pushing your bikes up.

Tom Butler: 22:46

At some point you decide to do the Baja Divide and you were looking at a bike route, the Baja Divide bike route.

Max Rosenberg: 22:58

Yeah, that's what it's called. It's called the Baja Divide. I guess it may be the Baja Divide mountain bike route, but it was actually I was looking at. I'm going to give a presentation at my bike club on June 8th. It was put together in 2016 by two people, nicholas Carmen and Lyle Wilcox. Lyle Wilcox I don't know about Nicholas Carmen, but Lyle Wilcox, from what I understand, is a very well-known bike racer, not in terms of a track racer or a road racer, but she's like. I think she holds the women's world record for the Great Divide mountain bike race, and so she's pretty well-known. So, apparently, in 2016, they decided to build a route through the length of Baja California, and that's what they went ahead and did. It's 1,730 miles long altogether, 95% unpaved, and you asked the question about expecting to ride or not. It says 99% rideable. Okay, yeah.

Tom Butler: 24:05

When you looked at that. I heard you say something earlier that made me think that this was going to be a different kind of challenge than you'd done before. Did I hear that right?

Max Rosenberg: 24:16

You did hear that right. So a couple of things. It is ranked as much more difficult than the Great Divide, the ride down the rockies in the united states. It's ranked more difficult because the roads are much rougher. So the great divide is is predominantly for a service gravel road, you know so, although there are some cheap trails and some single track and certainly some areas you have to push, most of it is pretty easy gravel riding the great divide, they say, be prepared for cobbles, you know, uh, sharp rocks, lots of sand and even though there are not huge long climbs like there are in the Rockies where you're nine miles and going up 5,000 feet, the roads are very short climbs but extremely steep and then extremely steep descents, so kind of like the Appalachian Mountains Up and down mountains, and so did you prepare differently for that ride than you would have prepared for other rides.

Max Rosenberg: 25:32

Yeah, there were a couple of things I did. There are two other things that make it different. Number one it's in Mexico, so you have the language and the culture. And then the other thing is that there's one four day stretch where you have to carry all your water. So you're, you're loading down 13, loaded down with 13 liters of water. It's a stretch they called the wild Pacific stretch.

Tom Butler: 25:56

And how far is that again?

Max Rosenberg: 25:58

Well, it took me three and a half days to do that.

Tom Butler: 26:00

Okay.

Max Rosenberg: 26:01

Wild Pacific, and so I started out that stretch with 13 liters of water on my bike, and on the other bikepacking trips I'd done usually I wasn't carrying any more than two or three liters.

Tom Butler: 26:13

Okay.

Max Rosenberg: 26:14

Yeah, there's just. You know there are a lot of streams and everything and but in Baja there were long stretches with basically no water.

Tom Butler: 26:23

That's one of the biggest questions I have about bikepacking, you know is I am such a wimp, you know, when it comes to water, because you know it's like I want to be able to to stop at a convenience station or something you know, and refill up my water bottles and throw my electrolytes in there, you know, and go and not carry much. It's a dynamic there that you have to think about.

Max Rosenberg: 26:51

I really like learning foreign languages, so I'd started to learn Spanish about three or four years ago. That was really nice that I spoke Spanish, because you're in a lot of really far away places, there aren't a lot of tourists and I didn't find hardly anybody that spoke any English. You're getting water from ranches, the rancheros, and they'll offer you food. So it really helped to speak some Spanish. Although it's not necessary, it's definitely a big help. The other preparation I did you asked about preparation was I put the widest tires I possibly could on my bike.

Max Rosenberg: 27:26

When I did the Great Divide, the mountain bike route from Banff to New Mexico, because that was gravel road, mostly gravel road I was using 2.3 inch tires, but my bike can fit up to 2.8 inch tires, so verging on balloon tires, but not quite. So I got 2.8 inch tires. I just had to adjust my kit so that most days I was well. Most days I was carrying six to eight liters of water. I had to figure out how I was going to carry 13 liters of water, and so I figured that out, and that was from a logistical standpoint. That was probably the preparation phase for the bike. It was just figuring out how I was going to carry my camping gear and my clothes, my food and 13 liters of water.

Tom Butler: 28:20

And then, of course, you're taking food. Were you pretty much, I'm thinking, doing dehydrated food, that you would do if you're on a backpacking trip, and things like that?

Max Rosenberg: 28:33

I don't have celiac disease but I don't do well with gluten and wheat, so in the States it's pretty easy to avoid gluten and wheat. So I was a little nervous about that going down to Mexico, but the food turned out to be really no problem. Usually you would go through small villages once or twice a day and every little village down there has a tienda, a shop, and they had things like fruit obviously, they had coffee and tea and sugar, they had packets of spiced meats like in a foil container, they had tuna fish, they had obviously tortillas, corn tortillas, and they had like dried mashed potatoes and vegetables. So it was really pretty easy to find good things to eat. I was a little nervous about the food before I left but I realized quickly that really wasn't a problem.

Tom Butler: 29:43

That's a huge thing, right. I mean to find out that you weren't going to have some of the challenges that you thought. That can make a big difference. You're putting out a lot of calories a day.

Max Rosenberg: 29:53

Yeah, for sure. And definitely peanut butter. And what's that Nutella? For lunch, I would eat a lot of peanut butter and Nutella burritos. Okay, they're super high calorie and usually after you eat a couple of those you're ready to roll.

Tom Butler: 30:11

And you're talking about corn tortillas.

Max Rosenberg: 30:14

Yes, with peanut butter Okay.

Tom Butler: 30:16

So that's interesting to me. I mean, for some reason I think, a flour tortilla that works okay. But when you start putting peanut butter on corn, corn, well the flour tortillas were better, but I I avoided them.

Max Rosenberg: 30:31

I I did right. Talk about this later. I did team up with some people. But yeah, actually Nutella and peanut butter and corn tortillas are pretty good because it corns holds the corn tortilla together. You, you know they tend to be a little crumbly.

Tom Butler: 30:45

Right, okay.

Max Rosenberg: 30:47

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 30:49

Did you have to take into account weather conditions for the trip? Is that something that you thought about, something you had to deal with?

Max Rosenberg: 30:58

Yes, very much so. And again, I have to mention the bikepackingcom website which gives the GPS files for the route. It would be impossible to do this route if you didn't have a GPS guidance system. I mean, you would just be hopelessly lost. But they also tell you what's the best time of year to do it, because Baja, particularly southern Baja, is just blazing hot in the summer. So they recommend doing it between October and March, probably the better time being January and February.

Max Rosenberg: 31:34

So I was able to block out the months of January and February of this year, 2024. And that's when I did it. But in terms of weather, surprisingly, the first three weeks were during, the day, were like in the low to mid 60s, so extremely perfect cycling weather. However, the nights were very, very, very cold, because you're in the desert in winter, the desert in winter, and so the minute the sun went down it just got really cold. And we had I say we, I'll maybe talk about my trail family later, but we had mornings we woke up anywhere between 20 and 30 degrees Very cold at night for the first three weeks, so say the first third of the trip.

Max Rosenberg: 32:22

The whole trip took seven weeks, the first a little more than the first third very cold nights, and then in the middle the nights were more like in the 40s and by the end the nights by the southern half the nights were in the 50s.

Tom Butler: 32:39

Well, that sounds like a pretty big range. Did you work it out where you could unload some equipment after a while, or did you have to carry gear that would allow you to stay warm when it's 20 degrees out the whole time?

Max Rosenberg: 32:55

Well, that's kind of funny. So I brought some thermal tights for my legs, but they were super old ones that I'd had for years and my plan was to jettison them as soon as I didn't need them. So that's what I did.

Max Rosenberg: 33:11

Okay, Um the other, the couple that I wound up riding six weeks, uh with. They bought some down jackets at a secondhand store and, uh, they thought they were going to jettison those at some point. But they wound up keeping them the entire time because it still was cool at night at times, but the only thing I jettisoned were my tights. There came a point where I said I don't need these anymore.

Tom Butler: 33:36

Gotcha, you mentioned people that you rode with a couple times here, so did you start out planning to ride with people or did you start out planning to ride by yourself? How did that come about? Can I digress just a little yeah, for sure, for sure, okay, in 2022, when I rode the great divide mountain bike route from banff to the mexican border in the rockies.

Max Rosenberg: 34:02

When I came back I was super psyched. I mean it was great. I just really had a great time. I met a lot of people. It was just wonderful Beautiful scenery. So I gave a presentation at my bike club here in Eugene and had a pretty good showing and everybody was like after the presentation people were coming up to me Max, what a great presentation. Looks like you had a great time. I am so glad I wasn't there with you.

Max Rosenberg: 34:30

That was like almost universal. It was like oh boy, that looked hard, you're sleeping out, you're camping every night, you're filthy, dirty. I'm so glad you had a good time, but I would never do that. But there was one guy that came up to me and said boy, I'd like to do something like that.

Max Rosenberg: 34:50

So to answer your question directly was I couldn't find anybody that wanted to go with me. Presentation of the Great Divide. He did want to go, but he could only do three weeks. He actually joined me for the final three weeks, but I started by myself and I remember. Now one of your questions was you know, how did your family feel about you undertaking this trip? And my wife, I mean, she's very understanding, she knows I love to do these things and she lets me go for two months and that's not an issue.

Max Rosenberg: 35:28

You know we keep in touch when we can, but she was a bit nervous about me doing this on my own. But I was determined to do it and I could not find anybody to go with me that I knew, except for Brian on the last third. So I had to start out on my own. But there is a Facebook group called the Baja Divide. I joined that group to see if I couldn't find somebody that might want to start with me or to ride with me. There was a couple from Great Britain that was starting more or less when I wanted to start. There was a couple from Denmark and there was a couple from Walla Walla, washington that were all starting more or less on the same day or within a day or two from when I wanted to start. So I sent them all messages through Facebook, explained who I was, blah, blah, and they all basically responded well, yeah, maybe we'll see you on the trail, and I don't know why, but there was one couple in particular, mark and Linda, and I remember sitting on the couch with my wife a couple of days before I'm leaving and they've got this picture and they turn out to be they're about 60 years old and I go now. This looks like the right people for me to team up with. So I sent them a message and I got more or less the same response. Well, yeah, sure, maybe we'll see on the trail, but nothing, firm Right. But I showed my wife look, he's got gray hair. This is perfect.

Max Rosenberg: 37:13

And so when I started, I turns out I started a day before they did out of Tecate, mexico. Well, actually it starts in San Diego. You ride a day in California, then you cross the border at Tecate, san Diego. You ride a day in California, then you cross the border in Tecate. And I got to Tecate a day before they did and I started texting them and giving them little updates about what to expect, because I had it in my little pea brain that these were the people I should team up with.

Max Rosenberg: 37:41

So I wound up riding only two days and then the third day there was a huge sandstorm. So I took a hotel and rode out the sandstorm, but they didn't. And they caught up to me on the end of the third day in Mexico, went out to the grocery store and I see them riding in the town as I'm going back to my hotel, which was at a campsite and I knew it was them. There they are. Obviously, we kind of zoomed together. You just naturally do that on a ride like this. You know you kind of. You just naturally come together with other cyclists when you're on something like this. And sure enough, it was Mark and Linda and they were having a hard time finding a hotel. They couldn't speak any Spanish and they were. They people were telling them no and they didn't know what the people were telling him and they go.

Tom Butler: 38:39

Do you?

Max Rosenberg: 38:39

have to speak any Spanish and I go, yeah, yeah, a little yeah. So I got him a hotel room and that was kind of the start of things. I need company and, you know, in order to be safe, it's better, obviously, not to be by yourself. So I needed the partners, and it turns out they could use someone that spoke some Spanish.

Tom Butler: 39:00

Yeah.

Max Rosenberg: 39:01

Yeah. So it was kind of a match made in heaven and we agreed to meet the next morning and we wound up riding together for seven weeks.

Tom Butler: 39:10

Nice, nice. What a way to get to know people right.

Max Rosenberg: 39:15

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tom Butler: 39:17

Nice.

Max Rosenberg: 39:17

There's a term in backpacking and also bikepacking called a trail family or a tramily.

Tom Butler: 39:25

Okay, or is a?

Max Rosenberg: 39:26

tramily. On other trips that I've done whether it be road trips like the Trans Am or the Pacific coast, that I've ridden long tours, road tours or the great divide of the Baja divide you know you meet people and the people that ride at your speed and that you enjoy their company. You tend to build a little trail family. This was a six-week trail family and I mean we really did become a family. It was really one of the amazing things about it. Yeah.

Tom Butler: 39:57

Nice, that's awesome.

Max Rosenberg: 39:59

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 40:00

So how did your body respond physically to the challenge? Did you feel like you were prepared? Was it like other challenges? You were prepared. Was it like other challenges? You had done? Was that okay?

Max Rosenberg: 40:10

So yeah, I know your podcast is about cycling over 60. And you know, I retired when I was 58 and didn't really give a thought. You know, when I was in my 50s or my early 60s I didn't really give it much of a thought. I felt pretty strong and I didn't feel like I was really aging that much yet. But the great divide, the one in the Rockies, you know, that one I was kind of like, well, I don't know if I can do this, but I'm going to try. And my plan was, if I can't do it, I'm just going to bail out and take a bus home. I'm a big cyclist. I probably ride five days a week with the club here in Eugene. So I'm, you know, I'm pretty fit and I think you had mentioned something about early on. You mentioned something about the bicycle being a health device. You know, I kind of look at it cycling as the fountain of youth.

Tom Butler: 41:12

Right.

Max Rosenberg: 41:12

I mean I. There are people in our club that are in their mid eighties that are riding, and I've I've met other cyclists in their mid eighties that, can you know, outride me.

Tom Butler: 41:21

Right.

Max Rosenberg: 41:22

Yeah, I mean it can be a real fountain of youth, and I look at it that way.

Tom Butler: 41:27

I actually love it when I'm climbing up some hill and struggling and then, like some 75-year-old woman, just steadily, just passes me and leaves me behind. I mean it's like, yes, I'd love to see that.

Max Rosenberg: 41:44

Yeah, so the great divide, my my plan was I'll do it if I can, and so that's how I approach these things, and in the great divide, it worked out no problem. I had no problem. I do remember one time in the border of wyoming and colorado and there was a little trailer parked I start to stop to get. This was on the Great Divide in 2022. And I stopped there and the guys at the park asked me how old I was, and so at the time, I was 66. And oh, you're the oldest one this year.

Tom Butler: 42:19

Wow.

Max Rosenberg: 42:20

All right, I'll take that.

Tom Butler: 42:21

Yeah.

Max Rosenberg: 42:22

So this time I was 69 and it was going to be a harder ride, so I just approached it the same way. It's like, well, I'm going to try, and if I can do it, great, and if I can't I'll just grab the bus and come home must be a dynamic there.

Tom Butler: 42:45

I mean you talked about half and carry water because there wasn't going to be any place to stop and get water. Just thinking that part of the trip must be a dynamic where it's really rustic along the way. It's not like you have a hotel everywhere that you're going to pull into. Was it more so that way on this trip than you think on most trips, or was it about the same?

Max Rosenberg: 43:09

Uh, there were stretches on this trip, like that four day stretch on the Pacific where I had to carry 13 liters of water, where it's pretty remote and I would say the Baja Divide is more remote, Although there are little villages. Like I said, for the most part you're probably going through at least one or two little tiny villages with a store every day, and actually in Mexico you can get water at the store. They usually have a big tank of purified water and for two pesos you can get a liter of water. So a lot of times we filled up at the Tiendas and then the other place we filled up were at the ranches, because, um, these, the route is very remote were at the ranches because the route is very remote. But the rancheros have realized that there are these cyclists going by and they've started a little bit of a cottage industry providing food and water and even places to sleep, if you want, on their ranches.

Max Rosenberg: 44:09

To be honest with you, I never once used my water filter, wow, wow, yeah, I mean I was constantly filtering water on the Great Divide and in the Rockies, but we got water at the Tiendas, at the Rancheros, and then I was looking at my notes for my presentation and it turns out that we stayed in a hotel every fourth night, and so we would. On average. We would camp three nights just out in the middle of the desert, just anywhere you want, you know, we would just okay, it's time to stop. We had our water with us, we had our food with us, so we just picked a flat spot with a nice view and we just camp, and we did that three nights out of four. But every time we had a chance to stay in a hotel, we did.

Max Rosenberg: 44:53

Without a doubt, the longest stretch I went without being in a hotel was six nights okay there was one stretch of six nights camping and I say just wild camping in the desert or on the beach gotcha, I mean, there's an aspect of that that's really appealing to me.

Tom Butler: 45:12

You know especially that like camping out on the beach, gotcha, I mean there's an aspect of that that's really appealing to me. You know, especially that like camping out on the beach I'm always curious about is there something about your background that there is an element of problem solving? There's kind of a mindset of being self-reliant and everything, and I'm just wondering if there's something about your background that kind of prepared you for that.

Max Rosenberg: 45:35

I don't know, I do. I do like being self-reliant, like a lot of my friends do bike tours, you know, organized tours with a company or something, and it just does not appeal to me. I just don't have any interest in that. I've I've always kind of liked to just be, I guess, be in charge, do it my own way. I wouldn't say be in charge, but be responsible, I think, and I enjoy the challenge of figuring things out. Is there something in my background, boy? I don't know. I know that when I was a youngster I joined the Boy Scouts. That was my first experience in backpacking. I fell in love with backpacking when I was 14 years old as a Boy Scout. I think that probably instills a certain amount of ability to solve problems and prepare, be prepared. That's the Boy Scout motto. I wasn't an Eagle Scout or anything like that, but if you ask that question, that's the thing that pops into my mind I was a Boy Scout.

Tom Butler: 46:48

Be prepared. You've done quite a few trips. Do you feel like there was any specific moment or moments on this trip that changed your outlook, that that was kind of a special moment that you haven't had before?

Max Rosenberg: 47:14

highlights for me? I wouldn't say that there was some. Well, I'll try to answer that question a little bit in a roundabout fashion. Number one camping out in the desert under a billion stars or on the beach under a billion stars, with nobody around, with a beautiful dark sky. Almost that entire peninsula is a dark sky and every night was just spectacular. So every night to me was just a joy to be camped out in the desert with a billion stars. There were a few days that were extremely difficult and so I suppose those were challenges, and so I suppose those were challenges.

Max Rosenberg: 47:56

Funny thing the first day, from san diego to tecate, I I got a late start, I had to assemble my bike out of the bike box and I I kind of stripped out the derailleur hanger screw, I was staying with. Uh, a friend of mine from the bike club said oh, I have a friend, steve, who lives right near the airport in San Diego and he'll pick you up and you can spend the night there. And anyway, we had to order a special tool to kind of rethread my derailleur hanger on my bike. So I didn't leave San Diego until quarter to 11. And it was a 55 mile, 3,600 foot climb with all my gear the first day, wow. And I had a reservation for a hotel in Tecate and I really didn't want to be riding it at night. And it was, and it was January 5th, the days were short. So the very first day was a really hard day and I actually started cramping up. You know, probably 10 miles short of Tecate and, uh, you know, I had to walk to probably the hardest day I've ever ridden just because I got such a late start and I could not ride that road at night. It was dangerous, it was a lot of traffic and no shoulder. So I had kind of a pretty.

Max Rosenberg: 49:06

I had a challenging first day, let's put it that way, so that kind of tested me, and then another day that I really. There were two other days that I really remember. There was one stretch I was with Mark and Linda at this point, when the road is called the Rancho Melling stretch up down, up down, up down, rutted, loose sand on the granite, very slippery, very steep. We only made 20 miles that day and both Linda and I fell down on a descent. She fell down twice. I fell down once. I was afraid I was going to break me or my bike when I fell, because it was a pretty hard fall. So that day was very, very challenging. And that day was the day I decided OK, the prime directive is I finish this ride with my bike and myself in one piece, and I realized that that had to be the prime directive. I realized that that had to be the prime directive.

Max Rosenberg: 50:13

As I did the ride, I was more and more accomplished at riding on difficult tracks, but I always had in mind when in doubt walk. So that day that I fell was kind of an eye-opener. And we only made 20 miles. My average was like 35 miles a day and I just remember Linda and I were just absolutely exhausted. Mark was an animal and he is, he's unbelievably strong. I mean we were just like I can't believe this guy can ride on this. But Linda and I were just normal humans. So, uh, um.

Max Rosenberg: 50:52

And then there was another day where we had 60-mile-an-hour winds and that was extremely challenging. I mean, it was hard. There were 30-mile-an-hour winds but they gusted to 60. And if they hit you from the side they'd just push you right over. But we had no choice. We had to basically make it to our destination that day because, uh well, there was just we did for supply reasons. We had to reach this little village. So those were the three days that I remember were the ones that were particularly challenging.

Max Rosenberg: 51:26

I can remember that windy day in particular, mark and Linda. There there was Highway 1. That's the main highway that runs up and down the Baja Peninsula, and they decided we're going to try riding Highway 1. And I went out. There there was a place where we were only three miles from the highway, so we rode over to it and the highway was elevated and I could not stay on my bike on the highway. It's two lanes wide, but even riding down the center line it was just blowing me off the road. Wow, yeah. So I went. I said I'm going back to the trail and they were going to try the highway. So I went by myself that day back to the trail because I didn't want to be hit by a truck or anything. I just remember that day, and in particular by myself, just saying you just have to keep going.

Tom Butler: 52:14

You, you know, just keep going, just keep going, just keep going that there's this end point and I'm going to get there at this time. I'm going to do anything and everything to make that end point that there are times you have to back off and, like what you said, you know I actually want to survive this trip, so you know that might that might change how fast I go at some time, that might change my itinerary at some point. But you know there are things to take into account more than just getting at this place by this time.

Max Rosenberg: 52:57

Yeah, I wasn't rushing this trip. I had talked to some other people that had done it, a couple of guys from Bend. They're members of the Corvallis Bike Club, which I sometimes ride with the Corvallis Club, and so I talked to this guy, john, and he did the Baja Divide and he's a stronger rider than I am. And he said, yeah, you know, we we went about 30 miles a day on the great divide. I was doing like I think I averaged 55, you know, and you know, almost like a road tour. Usually I average like 65 on a road tour tour, usually I average like 65 on a road tour. And he said, oh, no, you're not going to be doing 55.

Max Rosenberg: 53:36

I was prepared and I planned for 33 miles a day, which is I averaged 35. But, to answer, kind of your point, the only time we would push it is if we had to make it somewhere because of water or food or some other reason. Other than that, uh, we pretty much went with the flow and, um, you know, we would stop when we were tired and everything we needed and you know it's like, yeah, we've had enough today, let's.

Max Rosenberg: 54:04

You know, let's stop. Um, the other thing that we did on this trip, because the writing was very hard. I mean, it really beats your body. Either the sand is hard to ride in, it's just slow, or very, very rocky, like riding on cobbles all the time. Every time we had a chance to take a hotel, we took a hotel and I was looking back on my notes and I rode for 42 days and I took nine rest days. Normally when I tour I don't take very many rest days. I usually ride every day. I just like riding and I don't feel like I need rest days. But on this one, to think that every fourth day was a rest day kind of tells you how hard it was.

Tom Butler: 54:49

What's next? Do you have something in mind, something that you want to take on in the future?

Max Rosenberg: 55:15

health. So my wife and I actually just got just came back from a month in Spain where we were on a reconnaissance mission to see where we might live for a year. Yeah, I've really fallen we both have fallen in love with Latin culture and Spanish, and so we were there looking on a reconnaissance mission to see where we might want to live for a year and we came back. But right now I have to do some tests and we're not exactly sure if we're going to be able to go to Spain. We were hoping to go this September and so if it turns out that we can go, our plan is to go live in Spain for a year can go, our plan is to go live in Spain for a year, and if we do that, I think what I would like to do.

Max Rosenberg: 55:58

At the end of that year my wife Valerie will come home and I would stay and do a route called the European Divide. I wouldn't do all of it. It starts up in northern Norway, goes through Sweden and goes all the way down to Portugal. I would not do the Swedish part, but I would probably do Denmark to Portugal.

Tom Butler: 56:22

Well, I hope that you get really good news on all those fronts and you're able to do that, because that sounds like it would be a wonderful thing.

Max Rosenberg: 56:31

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Tom Butler: 56:34

Max, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a blast and you know, when you talk about getting out there in under the stars and just clear skies, you know, not polluted, not blocked by pollution or anything getting getting away from cars, it just sounds so attractive to me and I'm so glad that you came and shared that journey with us.

Max Rosenberg: 57:01

Yeah, I would. I would recommend to anybody who likes the outdoors, who likes to camp and who likes to cycle to try bikepacking. It is really an amazing sport.

Tom Butler: 57:13

Well, I have a goal of doing some overnight trips. I you know I'm going to start there. I'm not going to launch on a you know, 40 day trip, because I do like backpacking and I think we have some great places to try that. So you're an inspiration for me.

Max Rosenberg: 57:31

I'm really looking forward to experiencing that.

Tom Butler: 57:32

So you're an inspiration for me, you know I really, I really looking forward to experiencing more.

Max Rosenberg: 57:36

Yeah, Well, I've. I've been inspired by other people, so it's good to be able to pass it on.

Tom Butler: 57:40

Nice.

Max Rosenberg: 57:41

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 57:42

All right, thank you, take care.

Max Rosenberg: 57:43

Okay, bye-bye.

Tom Butler: 57:53

One thing that really stood out to me about Mac's trip on the Baja Divide is having to carry 13 liters of water. That says a lot to me about how remote the section of that trip is. As I said before, it would take a lot for me to even consider that kind of cycling adventure. There are a lot of rides I could do. That would provide an indication of what off-road adventure I could handle. The great divide mountain bike route sounds like it would have sections that could be manageable at my current level of cycling. Bikepackingcom has some overnight trip suggestions for the great divide. Seems to me that starting with several overnight trips is the way to go and I'm actively looking for an overnight trip to do. I hope you are finding routes that are just the right kind of challenge for you, whether that means on pavement or on dirt and remember age is just a gear change.