Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 3, episode 30, conversations Across America, and I'm your host, tom Butler. Last week on the podcast, I talked to my wife, kelly, about her cycling journey and I received some feedback based on that conversation with Kelly. It created a useful discussion between us. I do appreciate it when people take the time to reach out to me. I decided to have Kelly back during this week's update to directly respond to that feedback. Welcome to the podcast, kelly, for a really brief moment.

Kelly Butler: 0:47

Thank you.

Tom Butler: 0:48

This is a first. I don't think I've had you on two weeks in a row. I'm not going to be interviewing you, but I did want you to bring you on for something specific. I received a message from a listener this week that had to do with our conversation, and so I wanted to have you comment on it First. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read the message and then I'm going to say a little bit about it and then just have you respond to some things in the message. Okay, Okay.

Tom Butler: 1:19

I really think you should listen to this last episode a little bit as an objective listener. Really think you should listen to this last episode a little bit as an objective listener. Pretend your roles are switched and that she's the she being you Kelly, that she's the avid cyclist and you are not. It might sound different to you. To me, it seems like you're trying to pressure your wife into enjoying cycling to the extent that you do. She only enjoys it to a point, so why force it? Instead of minimizing her love for jet skiing and hiking and worrying about all of her potential injuries, you might want to take a look at what you yourself are doing. You've talked about your own physical issues and ailments as well, yet you continue to cycle. Why are you allowed to work through those, but she's not allowed to work through hers using the sports that she loves?

Tom Butler: 2:07

I'm not sure why you're so focused on the idea of being a quote cycling family. People's needs and wants change all the time. Maybe at one time, being a cycling family was something she wanted, but perhaps that's not her be-all end-all at this point Sounds like something you want way more than she does. It really sounds like something she's agreed to just to make you happy. So there's a little bit more, but that's really the gist of it. First of all, what I want to say and I'm really serious about this is I'm glad this person reached out and shared these thoughts, because I think it's important and I think this aspect of like step back and listen to it and reflect on it, put yourself in another person's shoes I think that's really vital, and so I appreciate that. I also appreciate the fact that it sounds like you have people looking out for you.

Kelly Butler: 3:04

Yeah, thank you, I appreciate it.

Tom Butler: 3:07

So I think that's good too. Instead of me just sharing my thoughts on this, I do want to step back and listen to you and put this forward to you and listen to what you have to say about it. I think that's important. So I see some sections here, and this is the first section. It seems like you're trying to pressure your wife into enjoying cycling to the extent that you do. She only enjoys it to a point, so why force it? What do you think when you hear that point, when you hear that, that question?

Kelly Butler: 3:42

Um, I don't feel like I have been pressured and I feel like I'm participating to the level that I can and want to. So if you want more, you might get some pushback, or I might want more later, I don't know. But for now I feel like what we've agreed to feels like a mutual agreement, so I don't feel like I'm forced into it. I do want to participate at a limited level and I think that level currently is pretty good.

Tom Butler: 4:12

I think we both understand that you don't enjoy cycling as much as I do.

Kelly Butler: 4:15

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 4:30

Want to be realistic, that what I'm doing could come across as pressure for you to enjoy it more than you do. So I just want to say, if you feel like you're getting pressure, point that out to me. Are you willing to do that? Yeah, I think, so I think so Is there some nervousness on your part that, if you would like push back on me and say, hey, you're pressuring me, that that could shut down my desire to get out and ride?

Kelly Butler: 4:54

On one level yes, on another level no.

Tom Butler: 4:56

Well, I'm just going to say that you know, I feel like I really need cycling. I know that I need to be active, and so I'm going to be cycling. I know that I need to be active, and so I'm going to be cycling. I do want you to enjoy it and I don't want you to force you to ride if you don't want to ride, but I really need to do it.

Kelly Butler: 5:17

Yeah, that's what I want. I want you to be able to continue to do it, and my level of engagement might vary.

Tom Butler: 5:24

The next thing I think is a little bit more of a difficult point. You know this question why are you allowed to work through those and that those is risks of cycling physical limitations that I have, you know that could maybe lead to injury. Limitations that I have, you know that could maybe lead to injury. Why am I allowed to work through those things and continue to cycle but you're not allowed to work through your specific physical limitations for the things that you love to do? I think that's a fair thing. I think you should be allowed to work through limitations to do the things that you love to do. I think that's just fair.

Kelly Butler: 6:11

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 6:12

I think here's where it gets hard is. I believe there's 100% possibility that you're going to hurt yourself if you go jet skiing.

Kelly Butler: 6:20

And I think you're crazy. And I think you're crazy.

Tom Butler: 6:32

So you know, to me there's a risk if I go cycling. That is not 100%. I wouldn't be doing it. If it was 100%, yeah, how?

Kelly Butler: 6:37

you can think it's 100%. That I'm going to get injured boggles my mind and I don't agree. So you know, yeah, that's tougher, I guess.

Tom Butler: 6:46

And the key is that we don't have to agree, Right? I mean, you can make your decision to do it and I can cross my fingers that that it'll be okay. You know, yeah. So I'll declare now that go for it, figure out some way to to jet skiing in the way that you enjoy it. And yeah, we'll just see what happens.

Kelly Butler: 7:11

Don't let your cortisol get too high over it.

Tom Butler: 7:13

Well, I'm telling you it's stressful for me and I think that it is right that I let you do risky things. The last thing that I want to talk about is where this person says I'm not sure why you're so focused on the idea of being a quote cycling family. So I first want to talk about the family systems dynamic. So when you do things as a family, it creates a layer of motivation that you just don't have when you're doing things on your own. So it's super beneficial to have.

Tom Butler: 7:53

In an episode I talked about my my identity. Part of my identity now is very strongly that I'm a cyclist, and so that is really beneficial for me to make the choices that I make to continue to cycle. Having identity that we're a cycling family, then that also creates a really strong likelihood I'm going to get exposed to opportunities to do cycling. So that's why it's a positive thing if we are a cycling family. But it doesn't make any sense to say we're a cycling family if we're not really a cycling family, if people in the family don't really enjoy spending time together cycling. It doesn't make any sense to call ourselves a cycling family if we're not.

Kelly Butler: 8:44

Well, I don't think I'm as tied to it, you know, mentally, emotionally, as you are. I think it makes sense that it's going to be easier for you if we are a cycling family. I don't think it's essential for you to do what you need, obviously without being a cycling family, but I think to call yourself a cycling family is just another level of support that is beneficial.

Tom Butler: 9:05

We talked about. Are you okay with, for now, us doing three cycling trips in a summer? I don't think there's anything like there's no standard where it's like you need to do this amount of stuff in order to be a cycling family.

Kelly Butler: 9:26

I don't think it's in the dictionary.

Tom Butler: 9:28

I don't think it's in the dictionary. To me it's like if we plan these cycling vacations, these cycling events, then I'm okay with that, meaning we're a cycling family. How do you feel about that?

Kelly Butler: 9:44

Whatever, this is your, this kind of, is your mental thing, yes, so it really doesn't matter what I think of it. I mean I'm just I want to be outside and having fun with you and this is, and I enjoy cycling enough to do that. If it means more to you than that, then hallelujah, but I, I don't need it. So it can mean whatever you want it to mean.

Tom Butler: 10:07

I'm feeling like I have the space in order to keep cycling, and again three times during the summer, if we go on these cycling trips and then, here and there, we take the bikes out and go have fun together. Invite the kids to go cycling with us and we all do it as family and have fun time together. Invite the kids to go cycling with us and we all do it as family and have fun time together. That's what's important. I hope that clarifies things Again. I'm glad this person reached out and shared their perspective and their observations. Do you have anything else? Any other thoughts that you have?

Kelly Butler: 10:41

No, I appreciate it. I'm grateful for the discussions that it brought and the thought processes. So I yeah, I love it awesome.

Tom Butler: 10:49

Thank you, send them in, keep, keep them coming all right. Bye for now, bye. I'm extremely fortunate that I get to have so many inspiring conversations with people about cycling. My guest this week is an author and an educator who cycled across the US with his father. Kari Loya experienced a journey that produced some special memories, but it also gave him an opportunity to put stories from his journey in a book to provide readers some great insights into life. Here's my conversation with Kari. My guest today has such a touching and powerful story to share with the world, and thank you, kari Loya, for joining me.

Kari Loya: 11:36

So glad to be here, Tom.

Tom Butler: 11:37

We're going to talk about a cycling journey that Kari went on with his father, Merv, who had started to get impacted by Alzheimer's. A book came out of that ride, called Conversations Across America of Father and Son Alzheimer's and 300 Conversations Along the Transamerica Bike Trail that Captured the Soul of America. I see the conversations you had on the trip as really valuable, but not more valuable than the ones you're having now, where you take wisdom gained from those encounters and bring them to others through conversations like what we're having today, and I'm so glad you're here.

Kari Loya: 12:12

Yeah, thank you so much for that nice introduction. And again, clearly we share a passion for cycling and discovery and I'm happy to have this conversation.

Tom Butler: 12:22

Excellent. Let's start out with tell me about your earliest memory of the bicycle.

Kari Loya: 12:29

This is a bike journey with my dad, and so one of my earliest memories of a bicycle is the fact that I grew up in Eugene, oregon, that my dad in the seventies was biking to work. That was very unusual, much more common in certain places now, but he was a pioneer in that sense that he would bike to and from work. That was very unusual, you know, much more common in certain places now, but he was a pioneer in that sense that he would bike to and from work. And so one of the things that I remember as a kid was, every once in a while I would get a tag along when I was free, and so it was the excitement of, you know, navigating through the city to the bike paths but also the streets. And I remember how, when he would come back, you know, oftentimes you would leave the bike paths but also the streets, and I remember how, when he would come back, oftentimes you would leave the bike path and you would actually merge into the lanes and you would treat yourself as a car and get into a turning lane and signal and all of that. And it was this wonderful empowering thrill of, okay, I'm a bike, but Ooh, I've, I've got some power here but I've also got to be very responsible. And uh and and and and. Freedom of biking, but I just I love that and that was one of the early ones.

Kari Loya: 13:32

And then, uh, and then I think back to in my sixth grade kind of the taste of bike adventure where we grew up again, eugene, oregon, a couple hours East in the Cascades, there the McKenzie pass which is part of the Transamerica ride, in late May it's closed all winter but they open it up to cars kind of late May, early June and if you there's this period where all the snow has melted before they've opened it up and you can go and you can park at the gate and you can bike six miles up to the top where you get that volcanic pumice and all of that and see all the volcanoes, the sisters, and then bike back down.

Kari Loya: 14:09

And I had fond memories of doing that as a sixth grader. Amazing Part of adventure is there's risk. On our way down I hit some gravel and I crashed and scraped up my whole side, my elbow. I've got some scars to this day, went to the ER, er stitches, all that. And yet here you know, decades since I have continued riding because the reward is so great that you are, uh, you know it's worth the uh, the occasional crash here and there.

Tom Butler: 14:38

Um, but those, those are some of the early memories but that's's a fantastic illustration of the draw of cycling, you know, to get you back on the bike and keep going later on. Did you stick with cycling as you grew older?

Kari Loya: 15:15

Yeah, you know about that time, sixth grade this was 1982 and 84. We were Eugene was very progressive and we were. I competed in two triathlons, essentially Olympic distance triathlons. They weren't called Olympic distance triathlons, they weren't called Olympic distance triathlons, they were just called weird events that no one knew what they were. But did that in, so did some races.

Kari Loya: 15:35

And then in eighth grade had an opportunity with my dad. His parents had a cabin in Wyoming in a place called Pinedale and so we had. It was my first three-day 300-mile ride where my sister and her friend drove sort of a sag support, but my dad and I did up through Jackson and then up and around Yellowstone, the loop and that was again that just lit my fire for exploration on bikes Amazing. Then high school college did some organized rides Amazing. Then high school college did some organized rides. At one point did a post-college, did a three-day, copied a back roads itinerary and did a three-day tour with some buddies through wine country in Napa, sonoma. And then a big adventure that I did was 1996, a college roommate and I took two weeks and we biked from San Rafael, crossed the Golden Gate, down the one all the way down to Tijuana and that was an amazing experience. In particular, it showed me just what was most amazing are the people that come up to you along the way, and so that was my first glimpse into the ride. The scenery, that's all amazing camaraderie with my buddy. But it was more about wow, just such interesting conversations along the way.

Kari Loya: 16:48

And then in 2001, I did an Ironman triathlon in the spring and I thought that summer my dad and I might do the Transamerica. We've talked about that for ages. I bought the maps to do it, and then we ended up not doing that. We actually did a bike ride in Colorado the Skyway in the South of Durango to Uray, silverado I'm trying to remember the name of the loop 300 mile loop, five days, amazing. But we didn't do the cross country trip. And so since 2001, that had been a pending trip that we talked about. And then it was years later, in 2014, years later, 2015, when I recognized there was this slim window, that we had this opportunity. If we didn't seize it, we probably never would do it, and so we seized it.

Tom Butler: 17:31

On this trip you were seizing it with your father, Merv, and tell us about Merv, If someone asks you that question. What are the things that you'd like to highlight about Merv?

Kari Loya: 17:43

Merv grew up in the Midwest and then moved out to Oregon and just an incredible father, always, always involved with me, a great listener, always athletic he would again I mentioned it biking to work when that was not vogue would always hike. I'm involved in Oregon athletics as a fan, so I grew up all around that. We had many, many father-son adventures together. And so then fast forward. We had just wonderful relationship, had been around the world together and but in 20, it's about 2011, had been diagnosed with early stage Alzheimer's and his father had had passed away 25 years earlier from Alzheimer's. And so we were monitoring this and I lived alone and you could see that there was, we'd see friends and neighbors and family were saying, hey, wow, you know, you got to watch out for Merv, watch out for Merv and you could see that he was struggling more and more.

Kari Loya: 18:41

And so when this opportunity popped up, it was going to be a chance for me actually to spend what became 73 days straight with Merv and see for myself where was he with all of this, with Alzheimer's, and that's what it was. You know, I didn't know, and so I would be back once, a couple of times a year, for a week, something like that, but I wasn't getting to do day-to-day stuff, and so this gave me. You know it was great. We're going to try to do something that we've always talked about. We don't know whether physically we are going to be able to do this, but it's also going to be a chance for me. I'm rarely going to be more than 10 feet from him and I'm going to see up close how he's doing, and that's exactly what it was. It was a chance to be together and I could see, okay, what impact is Alzheimer's having.

Tom Butler: 19:34

It sounds like you had thought about this route before, about taking a route doing that journey before. So by the time you got around to doing it, did you feel like you were pretty set what route you want to do, or was there still some thinking to do about what would be the best route for this kind of trip?

Kari Loya: 19:55

Yeah, so. So we we had. Originally we had always talked about the trans America, and the trans America for, for those who don't know was set up in 1976. It was a organization that later became Adventure Cycling, based in Montana, and it was to celebrate the bicentennial of the United States in 1976. And this group of this eclectic group of intrepid cyclists about a thousand many were college students, but there were a lot of older folks and they started in Astoria, oregon, and they wound their way east to Yorktown, pennsylvania, crossing 10 States mapped is about 4,200 miles.

Kari Loya: 20:34

And so we they had passed within a half mile of our house, and that's how my dad had gotten the idea in his head long ago. And so he said, oh okay, well, you know that that would be a route. But then we said, oh okay, well, you know that that would be a route. But then we said, while most people go west to east, we would like to go east to west for two reasons Number one, it'd be a homecoming, because we'd like to end in our glorious home state of Oregon. And then, number two, I think most people agree that the spectacular scenery of the United States is Rocky's West, and so we wanted to save our dessert for last. We were pretty set on okay, we're going to do the Transamerica, here's the route we got to follow this.

Kari Loya: 21:13

What we didn't know and there, by the way, is that there's a Northern Tier route and a Southern Tier route. We were going to do the classic, but what we didn't know is just how far we could go, and that was based on number one, fitness, because my dad was always in good shape, I was always in good shape. But there's good shape and then there's lugging many, many pounds up a mountain pass uh, very different. And so we did kind of minimal training, but we figured you know what, if we can get through the first few weeks, we will get in shape and we will get stronger as we go. But then there was also the variable of Alzheimer's, and so I needed to see, okay, how was that going to impact what we were doing? But but yeah, so we were. We were set on a route. The only question was okay, how fast can we do this?

Tom Butler: 22:00

I'm wondering about that decision to go east to west. As you look at that, do you have any regret for that or do you feel like that was absolutely the right decision?

Kari Loya: 22:09

No, absolutely the right decision. That said, though, I think most people also agree that the hills of Virginia and Kentucky are. Many will argue that that's tougher than the hills out west.

Tom Butler: 22:25

Interesting.

Kari Loya: 22:26

They're shorter and they're steeper, and so when you get out West, you get the 6% grade for a long time, but it's a 6% grade and you just get some grades that are steeper than that unexpected and it and it yeah, it's tiring.

Tom Butler: 22:43

On the November 16th 2023 episode, I interviewed Jen O'Dell, the executive director of the American Cycling or the Venture Cycling Association, and so it was a great conversation and just really you know that whole genesis of venture cycling and everything. It's a great story and I think that that you know lives on in that trans America trail.

Kari Loya: 23:12

Amazing. Yeah, and you know the founder of that, who was the CEO, longtime CEO, and I'm forgetting his name. We met him when we went through Missoula and you go there, and one of the nice things they do is they take a photo of everyone and he had done that, he had been doing that for years, and so he was. One of the nice things they do is they take a photo of everyone and he had done that, he had been doing that for years, and so he was one of the folks that I then just turned around and say, hey, tell me about yourself. And he starts talking. He and his wife were the second and third person people to bike from Patagonia to Alaska. They appeared in.

Kari Loya: 23:43

National Geographic many years ago and then after that got involved with Adventure Cycling.

Tom Butler: 23:49

That is so cool. Now I'm wondering you had done a lot of adventure like that.

Kari Loya: 23:56

you're um, you're constantly learning and you need to adapt. And so that, yeah, I, you know, went in and I had an Excel sheet that has all the little, the oh, we'll go here the first day, that, that, that, that that, and pretty quickly, by day two, you know, you're like, okay, no, no, we, things have changed, we've got to adapt. We now know this instead of that. Yeah, I mean. So some of this you know. And again, one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, adventure.

Kari Loya: 24:42

When you talk about adventure, adventure is there's kind of certainty and predictability and preparation. And then, on the other end, to the degree that you prepare a little less, there's more uncertainty. That's adventure. And there's more uncertainty, that's adventure. And there's more risk, there's more unknown, and some people are not comfortable in that at all, and those are the ones that should go to the back roads and they know that. You're going to sleep here, you've chosen your bed, you've chosen your meal in advance. All of that is predictable. So you know it's 98% is programmed and there's 2% that, oh, do we want the Chardonnay or do we want the Rosé?

Kari Loya: 25:18

But for, and then you literally meet people that have almost entirely winged this, where, oh, and they've got their. They have very minimal gear and they're just out there, and so for I've found, for me it's kind of like I seem to thrive when it's about 70 or 80% preparation where I know I've got the basics, so no one's going to die or get seriously injured, but there's this 30% that we don't know, we're going to have to figure out, and I also find that then that's where kind of the learning comes, because you're having to deal with some unexpected things, and that's where the joy comes from overcoming that kind of the learning comes, because you're having to deal with some unexpected things, and that's where the joy comes from overcoming that kind of some challenges that come up as a result of that. But everyone's got to find what their their sweet spot is for adventure. As I say that, do you think where would you put yourself on the are you? You know, 99 percent, I want it all programmed or I.

Tom Butler: 26:13

I think I am probably like 95 now. If I was doing more of it you know where I had maybe experienced some challenges and overcome those challenges. You know it could be that I'd be more comfortable with about 80, but I'm pretty comfortable with having things pretty planned out.

Kari Loya: 26:30

Yeah, I think you know, I think that's such an interesting point and I think you probably have experienced this your comfort with risk, with the unknown increases as you do, small exposure to that, and so the 98%, and then you 95% Boy, I did that, now I can go to a 92%, we'll figure it out and you build your confidence in your ability to adapt and figure stuff out.

Tom Butler: 26:55

We've talked before on the podcast with people about serendipity and I, you know, there is an element of that word that, yeah, and I really understand the attraction to that and at the same time I am a planner, you know, and there is that itinerary in your book, in the appendix of your book, and is that sounds like it's more of kind of the final itinerary.

Kari Loya: 27:18

Correct. That's, that's a okay. Let's now go back and see where we ended up, and I think you know, probably the most telling stat is that on three and this will push your comfort zone, but I'd say of three, three quarters of of the 73 days, 72 nights that we were out there, we did not know where we would sleep as of 4 PM. So, okay, we're going to write this town or that town. Okay, then, what are our options we got? Is there space, that, that, that? Okay, where can we camp this? And so, yeah, that I think that that you really have to be comfortable, then, with uncertainty.

Tom Butler: 28:00

Now, and there's a bit of. If you are going through Virginia, I'm thinking you know, and if you don't know where you're going to stay, there's some options. But I'm thinking that the Eastern Oregon might be a different. You know setting where you could go. You know a hundred miles without finding some place to stay.

Kari Loya: 28:25

Yeah, absolutely. And so just to give you a sense of this, the, the. You know we were trying to keep a tight budget but we did everything from on the uh, low end, sleeping literally on the side of the highway, I think in Eastern Oregon, probably. I think it was literally our first night in Eastern Oregon. I was like, okay, there and literally off the side of the highway, a lone highway, um, so everything from that, or behind a gas station and just pitching a tent and sleeping there to the far other end.

Kari Loya: 28:56

Going through Yellowstone and recognizing we had developed, my dad really struggled when the temperature dropped below and I can't remember what it was, I think it was like 42 or something. We realized, okay, if it's below 42 degrees, then he's not going to sleep, he's, because he gets up to go to the bathroom at too many times and then he gets cold and it's just an awful. So it was a deal breaker. So early on we had determined okay, if it's going to be 40, we have to find a place to sleep indoors. And so when we got to Yellowstone, there was no availability in like a camping area and so there was one of the I can't remember Lake Yellowstone lodge. So I think literally it was like half our budget, you know, $400 for one night.

Kari Loya: 29:37

And so so we splurged and we had a great time. You know, that was a little the, some of the, the, the, the fun mixed in, but we literally did $400 a night to sleeping behind a gas station and sleeping on the side of the highway. And then we had in between we had some very simple motels. We had the warm showers where people would open up their home. We had strangers open up their home to us. We had churches where you could stay with churches and they would open up things to cyclists. So it was this wonderful mix of arrangements and again, we got a great night's sleep in all of these places.

Tom Butler: 30:18

Now we got connected because of warm showers and I'm wondering if you could talk about that. I don't think you really knew much about warm showers when you started out.

Kari Loya: 30:29

We didn't. And again, talking about some of these other folks when we were riding in, this is coming from the East into Pueblo, colorado. We ended up befriending this cyclist who was actually biking out to Eugene, our hometown, and he was going out to because his older brother was graduating from the University of Oregon, and so we spent a whole day just biking with him and he was one of those minimalists where he was, I think, a sophomore in college and he had just sort of like, yep, I'm going to go out and do this and not a lot of gear. But he told us that he was staying that night at a little I think it was like a little goat farm or sheep farm. It's thanks to this place called warm showers, this platform called warm showers, and so we ended up joining him.

Kari Loya: 31:11

There was space. We stayed there, but that's what made us aware then of this platform, and so we ended up using it about four or five more times and it was great. Had we known about that earlier, we absolutely would have, you know, uh, taken advantage of that.

Tom Butler: 31:25

I think there's like a self-selection aspect to warm showers, where you know these are people that just really enjoy hosting cyclists, and so I see that as a great thing.

Kari Loya: 31:37

Yeah, I mean, it was just in the conversations. Again, these are really interesting folks and you know some of these people had cycled all over the place in Europe and yeah, just interesting and curious. As soon as you are agreeing to host a stranger in your home, that says a lot about you.

Tom Butler: 31:56

Yeah, Now the book is just packed full of stories. It's just this really fun combination of kind of the dynamics of your trip and then these snippets. You know, I just feel like you could feel what it's like. You're talking about these conversations, that you have people that you just bump into and you start learning about them. The book is just packed full of like those snippets and everything, and it's interesting. One story jumped out to me. I don't really know why, but you talk about a Merv speaking Finnish in Missouri. I wonder if you could share a bit about that.

Kari Loya: 32:36

Yeah, so it actually. It wasn't that he was speaking Finnish in Missouri, it was that in Missouri, you know, there were kind of two parts. There are all these conversations we have with folks, but then as I tell the story I'm reflecting on some of our father, father, son experiences. And in that chapter on Missouri I'm reflecting on how, when I was 1984 and we had the good fortune to drive down in our old 71 VW square back down to LA and go to the Olympics, la and go to the Olympics, and while we were at the Olympics we were outside the Coliseum there and my, my, my grandparents were Finnish and my dad spoke Finnish a little rusty but now, but he had spoken Finnish and lived in Finland. But we were outside of the Coliseum and there's all these, you're hearing all these languages. But these two gentlemen were struggling to get some information from one of the booths and my dad then just turned around and suddenly he's like oh, who that by that? And he started and he rattled it and suddenly these guys brighten up so much that there is someone who speaks Finnish and they have this wonderful conversation, he helps them get what they need, et cetera.

Kari Loya: 33:49

But that it was one of those moments again, just, you know, is a father, son. My family was there, but the father-son of just seeing your dad do something that you didn't even really think about or know about, and then seeing you know sort of a superpower, and then seeing the impact that has on someone else and in this case it was languages and the power of languages to make connection and cross chasms, bridge gaps that was an early motivator for me to learn languages, because they can build bridges and more discovery, more connections and you know, and a bike journey is exactly that it's an opportunity to connect with people and if whether that's in this country or someone else, but boy, if you can take the time to learn a little bit of another language, it just it there's a wonderful meaningful connection that comes out of that as you're riding along, and it is a unique moment in your relationship with your father and there's some changes that are happening.

Tom Butler: 35:03

You know, in cycling, I think there's some space to think and process things, and you know that you like stepped out of the present and into the past and able to really process some memories. Do you feel like that was a real aspect of this journey for you?

Kari Loya: 35:18

Yeah, you know, I think, that you use just to process when you're cycling or when you are, you know, hiking. There's other forms, but when you're moving at that slow it's a slower pace. Yes, there's some times where you're going faster, but you have time. You have time and there's stillness even though, yes, you're in motion. So, yeah, absolutely there's a lot of time to reflect and to think. I think. One would argue, I think, when you look at all sorts of studies these days, that's what everyone wants. Everyone wants time to just slow down and process and have some space and create was a very intense first few weeks where we didn't know if we would be able to pull this off. Those first few weeks there wasn't a lot of stillness and time and processing and it was, wow, going all out and having to adapt as quickly, learn, make adjustments. Could we make this?

Kari Loya: 36:36

It was once we got to Colorado and there's the Hoosier Pass just outside of Breckenridge. That's the highest point of the Transamerica, I think, it's about 13,000 feet, and when we went up and over that pass, which was snow covered, I mean. So I love this Merv with his balaclava, gloves and tights and everything, this 75-year-old guy with Alzheimer's biking up that's surrounded by all this snow and just it's like, okay, if he can do it, we all can do this. But once we got there, I realized we by then we'd learned all of our lessons and we knew we could do this. You know, we'd learned all of our lessons and we knew we could do this. You know, provided we were smart. And and from then on we had definitely more time, even for our conversations. It was less about logistical things and adaptation. It was and it became more about enjoyment and processing and reflection.

Tom Butler: 37:29

I'm wondering, you know you talked about, you know about this guy in his 70s that is making it over, and Murph was fit. He had stayed fit in his life it sounds like throughout his life but people reacted to him in his age and I'm wondering if you could talk about what you feel that says about how we view aging first on the.

Kari Loya: 37:56

You know, I guess the reaction yeah, it reminded me a little bit of kind of Merv was a little bit like when, on a college campus, when someone has a puppy and people come up and oh, because I there, you know I'm a cyclist but then they see this older guy and he's the center of attention that I, sir, do you mind me asking how old are you? And they would say, by golly, that is just a miracle. And and there was this, this wonderful appreciation for, you know, him being out, doing what he's doing and it's and it's not just biking, I mean, the guy is biking ended up being 4,700 miles, 4,600 miles across the country. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of surprise.

Kari Loya: 38:38

I would argue, though, that you've, I think we're seeing in the last 10 years, the last 10, 15 years, really. You're seeing longevity is becoming a huge topic and wellness and healthy aging. You're just seeing so many more folks modeling now and trying to be active at any age, and that's awesome. There's all sorts of more tools, resources, other things, but so many more examples now of people being very active as they age.

Tom Butler: 39:12

Yeah, and that's I mean, that's kind of my journey, you know, and kind of the whole genesis of cycling over 60 is my discovery that wow, after 60, I can get stronger and it's a lot better than what I thought it would be cycling over 60.

Kari Loya: 39:29

Yeah, I mean it's I, and I think part of that then is it's boy. It's so important to be. Uh, you know, I mean it's I, and I think part of that then is it's boy. It's so important to be. You know, in Spanish, be around, be around the good, and you'll become one of them. And it's just, who are we around? There are plenty of folks that are, you know, just, they'll watch TV and and eat and just kind of look out and. But when you get out and you do some of these things, you discover a whole tribe of folks that are doing these amazing things, and that's, I think, it's just so important to expose yourself to those folks that remind us what we're capable of.

Tom Butler: 40:06

In your book there's just a lot of photos. You know, pages and pages of photos.

Kari Loya: 40:30

You know pages and pages of photos and it's a truly diverse mixture of people. It's more accurate, it's a, it's a snapshot of rural America, because the biggest city, where it was Pueblo, and then the Eugene and Carbondale, but generally most of the trail is we're going through towns of populations of 10,000 or less, but I think even within that there's just such America has. The US, has such a rich range of characters and stories, and so we had coal miners in Kentucky, and then we have. Then we're talking with a farmer in Kansas, then we're talking with an entrepreneur in Colorado, then we're talking with an illegal immigrant who is working in a restaurant and is proud and doing karaoke night very popular but crossed over, you know, paying a coyote, and then we're talking with someone who's running across the country, and so on and so on, and you get just this incredible richness. And so I hope it.

Kari Loya: 41:26

You know, seeing that, I hope, number one, folks appreciate the richness of our people. And then, number two, I hope it motivates them to get out and explore, and a lot of the folks, one of those amazing things when you're talking with people, they come up and they start by hey, where are you going? They're asking about you, but pretty quickly if you flip it around and you say, hey, tell me about you, and they quickly I mean you don't even know these folks and very quickly they are sharing their dreams. I've always wanted to or oh, it was amazing, we once did. They share their dreams. They also share their tragedies. You know very serious accidents and I always went, but then this happened and it just you know. I hope in hearing those stories it makes us, makes folks seize the day, go after what they want to go after and when they do, I hope they'll go with an open mind and listen to people that they meet along the way.

Tom Butler: 42:25

I love it. One of the subtitle sections you have is capture the soul of America.

Kelly Butler: 42:32

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 42:32

And can you talk about that? What? What did it mean to you to capture the soul of America?

Kari Loya: 42:51

There is also at the core. You know, with very few exceptions, every single person that we encountered is curious. They want to help out. They're nice If they can help, they do. They have their dreams. You know, I think America leans optimistic compared to so many other places. And you know, and when you go through that you also man, if you, if you pay attention to social media and media, you would think that we are, you know, the oh my gosh, we are so different. But the reality is those are focusing on this group over here, on this extreme over here. Most of us have a lot in common and we've got differences here and there, have a lot in common and we've got differences here and there, but you know, we have so much more in common than is portrayed and it's fun to see that.

Tom Butler: 43:42

I think that's well said and I think that's a real value. You know, we almost need to have an assignment to go cycling through America and you know and get connected to it, because it's it's there's a real value there of being connected to it.

Kari Loya: 44:00

Yeah, I mean, you know and and the other, you know the thing, you know whether it's there. I think I've seen this out in DC. You know, historically, um, folks on the left and the right and and and politics would often have dinner together and and that's. That's happened less, much less over the last 20 years. But when you are on a bike, you are vulnerable, you're open.

Kari Loya: 44:21

When you're in a car, you can drive across America. There's this steel box that shields you from connecting with people in a meaningful way. Even when you're on a motorcycle, that's often intimidating to folks and some people might come up, but most will not. When you are on a bike, you are vulnerable and people come up and want to know what you're doing and there's an opportunity to connect and that's connecting regardless of their background, regardless of how they voted, and you discover all of these things that you have in common. Yeah, the classic if we could break bad more bed more often, well, that's the starting point to then try to discuss some of the differences, but so much we have in common that's cool.

Tom Butler: 45:03

How about just the pace that you're going? Do you think there's something special about discovery at the speed of cycling?

Kari Loya: 45:12

yeah, it's. You know it's funny. I was thinking originally one of the titles or subtitles is going to be something about America at 12 miles per hour and you kind of average it out. We went faster at times and then even slower at times and off our bike, but about 12 miles an hour and yeah, it's it's, you have time.

Kari Loya: 45:33

You know, one of those initial questions that I asked myself as we started this journey was okay, we're biking, what am I going to collect? And so I started thinking okay, I'm going to collect, you know, you're in Virginia, you see, oh, let's start collecting all those wonderful scriptures and messages they have outside of the churches. That says, like, you know, don't trust Google, trust the Bible and you know things like. And you go across like, okay, we can collect those. You know these aphorisms. Or oh, wow, no, there's, there's those. All these really, um, artisanal, painted, uh, mailboxes or Nate mailbox, like, oh, we can collect that.

Kari Loya: 46:12

And so I'm thinking through what are all these things ultimately ended up collecting the stories of people we met and I felt that that was you know, but, but you have time, and so you know what are you thinking about. There were some folks that I knew it's interesting. We came across a couple other cyclists. They would listen to audio books and okay, you can do that and in fact, I. I in fact did that in Idaho and it was very helpful that it was a tool Gawande on being mortal and that that actually provided a very helpful framework for a constructive conversation with my dad about Alzheimer's. But, yeah, it's, it's when you have time, you know how do you want to use that time? That's beautiful, it's the gift of time.

Tom Butler: 46:53

And I think there's a special the world going by and you've got some time. I think there is a special way of interacting with the environment when you're going through it on a bicycle that kind of, to me, optimizes that time.

Kari Loya: 47:10

I can compare. I literally just was last week in Big Bend. I was chaperoning this group and his trip there, and as part of it we were on ATVs. And I've been around ATVs. I've never been on an ATV, not really my thing. But then I was just thinking, you know, we did two hours around kind of the desert there on ATVs and, okay, got us around, but boy, I was wishing that I had been on a bike.

Kari Loya: 47:36

And why was that? Because, number one, there were about eight of us, 10 of us. We could only talk with each other. When we stopped every 20, 30 minutes, we couldn't say, hey, check that. Hey, what do you think about that? Number two, the whole time there is a motor, so it's. I felt like I was mowing the lawn and so you're hearing a motor. Number three, that motor scares away wildlife. And then, number four, you've got this helmet on. So, even though my body was feeling the wind and feeling this connection, the sound was muffled and my head vision was slightly limited. But my head was not feeling the breeze, I was not feeling the breeze on my cheeks, I was not smelling the smells. And so when you are on a bike, or on foot for that matter. You just feel you are much more in communion with nature.

Tom Butler: 48:31

Yeah, I love that word communion. I think that's a good word for it. Yeah, I love that word communion. I think that's a good word for it. I've heard you on a podcast talk about you're thinking about maybe a trip with your daughter.

Kari Loya: 48:45

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 48:46

And I'm wondering. It seems like there's a real difference there about planning, thinking about a trip with your daughter and a trip with Murph. Can you kind of unpack that a little bit?

Kari Loya: 49:00

Yeah, I appreciate the question and well. So I'm someone who seizes the day, so I can talk now retroactively, because last summer my daughter and I we as part of a European, a daddy daughter European adventure, we did 12 days hiking the Tour de Mont Blanc, and so that's starting in Chamonix, france, going to Italy and then going up to Switzerland. My daughter is not a competitive athlete the way I was. She'll do things, but it's not, that's not her thing. And but when we talked about this, she was excited about the cultural adventure of all of this and the beautiful, you know, eating as many pan de chocolat and croissants as she could. But we spent six we're based in Houston and spent six months. There are no mountains, hills, there's not the training ground that Oregon has to train for the Alps. So what did we do? We did the best we could. On Sundays we would get up early and we would go to a parking garage near us and we would go up and down the six and a half flights of stairs with a backpack and we did that for hours on end and we built up. We built up from just you know, the first time it was like 30 minutes and we built up over time. And so that was a wonderful adventure, teaching her to build up for something over time. And so that was a wonderful adventure, teaching her to build up for something.

Kari Loya: 50:17

And then, when we got over there, sort of the same thing 70% maybe it was 80% was prepared, but there was this 20% unknown, and it was funny because it was talking about Merv as being sort of the puppy that captures attention, the old guy. It was exactly the opposite, where this time, no one cared about me. They're like hey, who are you? You're so young, what are you out here doing? This is amazing, tell me all about you. And once again, there was the. There's the physical challenge, and that was great, and the you know, we did this and we climbed that. And then there's the natural beauty. But, hands down, the best value out of that trip was exposing her to all of these amazing people that are out there doing the same thing. And so she had. We would have family style meals and some of these refuges, and she's with an Israeli, she's with some Canadians, she's with some French, she's with some Spaniards, mexican, and just an awesome chance for her to see, you know, a glimpse of the world.

Tom Butler: 51:19

And what a way to be shaped. You know that will carry with her the rest of her life. So, that's fantastic.

Kari Loya: 51:28

Yeah, and you know, I said, okay, what's the most important thing you've learned out of that? And a simple answer, which is I can do hard things, and isn't that beautiful. That's what we want the next generation to believe. Yeah, things are tough and that's okay, because you can do hard things.

Tom Butler: 51:48

I love it. To me, the book listening to you speak here, talking to you, you obviously have part of your identity is an educator. And what does an educator's mindset look like?

Kari Loya: 52:07

You know, when I was heading a school in the Caribbean and I actually, you know, there's head of school but I actually one of my fun little title I put was chief learning officer. And you know, I think great teachers are just curious. They're curious about the world and they're curious about everything around them, and so they are learning and what they're doing is they're modeling learning, they're exploring their learning, and then they're turning around and trying to share that with others. I mean, the book is an example of that. It's I'm going out and I'm exploring, I'm listening to all these folks, and then I'm trying to share that, to educate others. And then you know, and then, and then there's another part which is great educators, then not only are they doing that, but then, when they're, it's more than just sharing.

Kari Loya: 52:54

You're now trying to empower others. And in order to empower others, you have to see where are they on ability? You know, simple are they a level one, a level two, level three, whatever the skill? And then they have to adjust and adapt and say, okay, don't give them a level eight, this person's a level three, okay, what can we do to get them to a level four? And so in this case, you know it was. I had very good training to work with my dad to adapt and see that you know, okay, we're trying to. No, we've got to quickly adjust and we've got to adapt to the level that we're at, and so I think that's something else that is very helpful. You know, educators say, okay, we are where we are, what's the next level for us to get to? Scaffolding is kind of a fancy term people use.

Tom Butler: 53:42

I think you maybe have embraced this throughout your life. I'm kind of reading through the lines and saying that, but I'm wondering about the aspect of fun. Did you feel like you learned anything about the importance of fun on this trip?

Kari Loya: 54:01

Yeah, at the end of the day, I believe it's got to be fun. In fact, I just read a quote here last week what's the secret to life? Enjoy it. It's so true Period life enjoy it.

Kari Loya: 54:17

That is so true period. So yeah, and you know, and I think of, I think of the early days of the adventure races. This is before um, the eco challenge and stuff. They had the ray goulart and that was the one of the. I think that was the original adventure race and I remember reading this is back in like the 90s. This is before leo burn herb. It was a mark burnett had set up equal challenge and all that, but that the, the, the winning team was always the french and the americans were there doing it and they and they there was.

Kari Loya: 54:43

I remember this vivid portrait that that a reporter had shared, where in the american camp they were all they all had like, was it moleskin? They're doing all this stuff. They're eating all these cliff bars and these little potions with formula, and then they go into the French camp and they're eating chocolate and drinking wine and smoking cigarettes and music. They're all that and the French were winning all the time. And so I'm not necessarily endorsing all of that, including the cigarettes.

Kari Loya: 55:15

But the point is, when you have fun, you get a lot of energy, and so, to the degree that you can mix in as much fun as you can, man, we can white knuckle stuff and that's great, but at the end of the day, are we having fun? And my dad modeled that really well. And so I think of my dad and kind of the three things that work hard, be nice. And so, you know, I think my dad kind of the three things that work hard, be nice. And by be nice, it really means listening, listen really well to other people, make them feel shared, make them feel valued, but then have fun.

Kari Loya: 55:46

And so all along we were able to mix in while, yeah, again, while we had a, you know, after those first three really challenging weeks to see, you know, would we be able to pull this off? Well, our first critical stop on day 21 was in shoot, I'm forgetting the name of the town in Kentucky, but it's the capital of bourbon, and so we had a bourbon tasting and a nice meal. And when we were back on McKenzie Pass, we had a. You know, we made sure we had been, uh, bought, I'd bought wine and chocolate and had a little French picnic up top. And uh, yeah, so that I I'm, I'm always trying to figure out how we can have fun.

Tom Butler: 56:25

Well, through the power of the internet. Uh, barston, kentucky, I think, is that, yeah, bardstown.

Kari Loya: 56:34

Bardstown. Bardstown, kentucky. That is the bourbon capital of the world. Very cool place.

Tom Butler: 56:40

I wonder if there's a reason why the Trans-American Trail goes through that town. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kari Loya: 56:48

I suppose if you flip it around, if you're going west to east, that becomes sort of the start of the celebration. Yeah, there you go, although remember Kentucky and Virginia have some tough hills so don't celebrate too soon.

Tom Butler: 57:04

You've done something that not too many people do, and that's complete this journey.

Kari Loya: 57:11

I'm interested about equipment but I know that would be a long list. If you're going to talk about that, what? When I take mine into the shop, everyone's like, oh my God, you've got a classic there. But it would. The bikes were great. We've all had the same bike. Um, we also had Ortlieb panniers, which were fantastic, um, and I'm assuming those are still being made.

Kari Loya: 57:48

Everything else, things shift, things change. I know gear is just. It's constantly changing, and I guess the point I would make is once again, you've got this range of folks. You've got a range of folks that have every single little thing and every little device for every little purpose, and you've got some folks that are just out there with kind of a t-shirt and shorts, and both are having amazing journeys, and and and, and both are having amazing journeys. So, if you, you know, I think it's helpful to look at gear. What I see often more often than not, though is people who really get into gear. They get into gear as much as they get into the cycling part of it, and so that's okay. Recognize that, but understand you don't need the gear for an amazing cycling experience.

Tom Butler: 58:37

Yeah, good, good advice, good comments. I'm wondering if there you know you, you do quite a bit of speaking about your journey and about your dad. I'm wondering if there are some things that you'd really like people to to know about Alzheimer's.

Kari Loya: 58:55

I think the most important thing and this is whether it's Alzheimer's or anything else, which is what I found originally was it was fast becoming a world of no's. So a world of no's? Oh no, Merv can't and can'ts. No, you can't do that, you can't do this, you can't do it, and everyone's focused on this kind of these limitations. So when we even broached this possibility that we were going to suddenly try to bike across the country whoa, no, how can you?

Kari Loya: 59:26

There was mild shock as a understatement, but what you see is people focus on what people can't do. And what happens when you focus on what they can do? So Merv was incapable of at any point in the trip or after the trip, of telling you on any one of those 73 days. He could not tell you that we started in town A and ended in town B. However, if you guide him and you point him in the right direction, what can he do? He can pedal and he can keep pedaling and keep pedaling and keep pedaling and suddenly he has gone 4,600 miles across the country as a 75-year-old with early stage Alzheimer's. So just yeah, I think the most important thing, whether it's Alzheimer's or anything else, be aware of how are you viewing things and are you focused on what someone can do more than what they can't do?

Tom Butler: 1:00:28

It's been a few years since you did the trip and you've processed it in numerous ways, including the book, and you used the phrase residual value of adventure and I'm wondering if you can talk about that. Do you feel like you carry that residual value everywhere?

Kari Loya: 1:00:48

Absolutely. When anyone takes a trip does any sort of adventure. You know, for us there were these 73 days, 73 days of adventure, highs, lows, all of that, but overall amazing feeling. Once it's done, you continue to carry with you every month, every year, fun memories. You also, as you move forward, you will have experiences where suddenly you get insight from something that happened during that adventure and so kind of the adventure is coming and teach. Oh yeah, this is like that. And you make these connections. And then further, when you have an adventure, when you move forward, you meet people.

Kari Loya: 1:01:38

And what is the fun of meeting people? Usually you're trying to find something in common. And when you have had an adventure, there is with a range of people, et cetera you are just a little bit more likely to find something to connect with with a person in front of you. Yeah, so, literally every day. In many ways I'm finding, as a result of things on that trip I'm pulling out oh, this is like, it's almost like your. You know your, your cursor on your, your mouse on your, um, you know one of the uh, an interactive map or something is as you. Oh yeah, we can click on this and now I can bring this up. Oh, we can click on this, um, depending on who is in front of you, and that's just what. What a gift.

Tom Butler: 1:02:23

Well, kari, this has been a gift to me talking to you and I really appreciate you taking the time to do this and I appreciate the book and the the snippets of people's lives, and it's just the snippets of people's lives and it's just. I think you've done an excellent job of capturing that journey at a really special time in the relationship with your dad, and thank you so much.

Kari Loya: 1:02:47

I appreciate the opportunity to be here. What's? Let me ask you one question what on a cycling front? What's something that is has got you excited, or what's the next thing that I go? What would you, what would you like to do?

Tom Butler: 1:03:00

Well, I could talk about this for a while, but last season the culminating event for the season was gonna be me riding across the state of Washington, and on the first day the bursitis in my knee started acting up, and by the end of the second day both of my knees were just screaming and so it felt like kind of a face plant. After you know nine months of ramping up to this trip and I kind of processed that in an episode after the trip about you know what disappointment is like and things like that.

Tom Butler: 1:03:38

But you know, so there's. There's a part of me that wants to do that, that wants to go revisit that, maybe do that with a different route than I had chosen. But there's just so many, so many things in the podcast. You know, hearing from other people there's the list just gets longer and longer all the time about experiences I'd like to have.

Kari Loya: 1:04:00

What a great problem.

Tom Butler: 1:04:02

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Kari Loya: 1:04:05

Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Tom Butler: 1:04:06

Yeah, and again, thank you so much for being here and I hope that you find a lot of adventures on the bike to come and with family and everything.

Kari Loya: 1:04:17

We'll look forward to crossing paths somewhere in the Cascades or something. Hey, tom, all right.

Tom Butler: 1:04:22

Sounds good, take care now.

Kari Loya: 1:04:24

Okay, thanks, tom, bye-bye.

Tom Butler: 1:04:35

I can't help but ask myself if I would have had the courage to do what Kari and Merv did. Maybe, more than anything else, I would have to believe in my ability to handle the unknown. The main obstacle here is that I see myself as just too inexperienced to fly by the seat of my pants. Of course, an important concept is whether or not serendipity yields higher quality experiences. I certainly know a lot of people that believe that is true. Maybe I should investigate that concept further. Maybe I need to just head out on a bike adventure with very little planning and see if it makes for a more memorable trip. Now, to do that, I would want to have somebody to share the journey with, ideally someone really good at problem solving. I'm intrigued enough by this idea to at least have some conversations about it. Whether you're ready to launch out on a cross-country trip with a minimum amount of planning, or you're happy with well-known local routes, I hope you're filling your cycling ventures with fun, and remember age is just a gear change.