Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 29,. A new cycling season for Kelly, and I'm your host, tom Butler. I'm one of those people that can go full tilt into something, only to find out I've missed something important after it's too late. A rather significant part of feeding my cycling is making sure that I get enough electrolytes. I still don't know exactly how much I should be consuming, but I think I have found a strategy that helps me avoid cramps, so I see that as a good sign that I'm doing something right with electrolyte consumption. Until recently, I've been using a pre-formulated electrolyte powder that I mix into my bottles for when I'm riding. I up the amount I take so that I put two packets of the powder in 24 ounces of water. That 24 ounces goes about 10 miles, so on a 30-mile ride I have been consuming six packets of electrolyte powder. I'm not recommending this for anyone else, and I do have a hope that I'll eventually be able to find a way to really dial in how much I should be consuming for my personal physiology. Until I find a way to dial it in more specifically for me, until I can dial it in more specifically for what I need, I'm going to be consuming 500 milligrams of potassium, 110 grams of sodium and 200 milligrams of magnesium every 10 miles. There are other minerals in the packets that I take, but these are the three that I'm most interested in.

Tom Butler: 1:38

I decided to see if I could find a more economical source for electrolytes. I'm estimating that I currently spend about 20 cents a mile for electrolytes, so for the 206 mile STP I would spend $41.20. I wanted to see if I could make that cheaper. I also wanted to see if I could find a more bioavailable form of electrolytes. I found a source for bulk electrolytes appropriately called bulksupplementscom. After some reading, I chose magnesium glycinate and potassium gluconate as a source for these two electrolytes and I decided to use Himalayan salt for sodium. I purchased 2.2 pounds of both the magnesium glycinate and the potassium gluconate. I also purchased some lime powder to provide some flavor. Doing the math, my homemade electrolyte blend comes out to about five cents per mile. So over the 206 mile STP I'm looking at spending $10.30 for electrolytes by making this change. To be honest, I'm not that excited about saving $30 for electrolytes on a two-day group ride, but if I extend that out to a year that's a little better. I'm planning on hitting about 3,700 miles this year. So at 20 cents a mile that's $740. At 5 cents a mile I would put out $180 a year for electrolytes. That makes it seem a little more worth it to do it on my own.

Tom Butler: 2:56

There, of course, is some effort to using the powders over pre-packaged options. I picked up some small Ziploc bags very cheaply, so I'll take a few hours here and there to fill a bunch of these bags so it's easy for me to take on a ride. Here's where it gets problematic. The potassium gluconate tastes horrible Because I got a 2.2 pound bag of it, against Kelly's advice. By the way, I have 333 water bottles, or 3,330 miles of really bad tasting potassium gluconate to get through. I'm holding out hope that I can find some form of flavor that can mask the taste of the potassium, but in reality I think it's going to be mile after mile of putting up with it. I really don't have a choice. Having said, oh, it will be fine when Kelly suggested starting out with a small bag till I knew it was going to work out. Now maybe it's an acquired taste and after 500 miles or so I will look forward to it. But I'm not betting on that, and there's another significant problem it takes a lot of effort to get it to mix evenly in the water. I will be shaking and shaking and shaking the water bottles to get it to not just be a clump in the bottom, and that's truly a pain in the neck Because I dove right in with these options. It means that I'm going to have a good long time to see how it works out.

Tom Butler: 4:15

I've certainly been enjoying the weekly rides with the Tacoma Washington Bicycle Club that I've started to do, and I had a wonderful experience one week. I met a cyclist named Steve on the trail recently. We got talking about local routes and I made the comment that I'm a slow climber. Steve looked at me and said I can see that isn't true. So Steve doesn't know that my legs look stronger than they perform, but that is okay, because I am thrilled that I look strong. To someone Two years ago, no one would have questioned me commenting that I'm a slow climber. In that little time I've been able to reshape my body, so at least it looks strong and obviously I am a much better climber than I was two years ago. My transformation should give hope to anyone who wants to get stronger later in life. Speaking of climbing, I might be making a mistake.

Tom Butler: 5:00

This weekend I tucked myself into riding the second cycle-coordinated event, called Destiny Dozen. It's a ride up the 12 toughest hills in Tacoma. The ride is 30 miles with 4,500 feet of elevation. There's an interesting aspect to this ride. I think it is fashioned after the Dirty Dozen ride in Pittsburgh. Everyone meets at the bottom of a hill, then the organizers give a signal and you race to the top. There are two groups One rides fast between climbs and the other rides slow between climbs. I will be in the slow group and not looking to see how fast I can climb. My goal will be just to make it to the top of all 12 climbs. If I make it, it will be the second most I have climbed in a day, so wish me luck.

Tom Butler: 5:51

At the beginning of this season of the podcast, I talked with my family and asked the question are we a cycling family? We decided the answer was yes, but now we're at the point where we start defining what that means in practice. The most important person in my life when it comes to me making healthy decisions is my wife, kelly. Family has an incredible impact on the choices we make. I thought it was time to check in with Kelly and hear about her cycling journey, which is very different from mine, and talk with her about her current thoughts about what it means to be a cycling family. Here is Kelly. I am here with my favorite guest. Thank you, kelly Butler, for joining me on the podcast again.

Kelly Butler: 6:29

Good to be here.

Tom Butler: 6:30

Now you are a bit of an experiment. Do you know that?

Kelly Butler: 6:36

Sure.

Tom Butler: 6:37

Do you?

Kelly Butler: 6:39

I'm always an experiment. But what do you mean by that? But what do you mean by that?

Tom Butler: 6:43

Well, you are not really a cyclist, right, so kind of our journey together right now. I consider myself a cyclist, but you are kind of pulled in and we've talked in the past about us being a cycling family, so it's kind of an experiment about how you can be part of a cycling family when you're really not that much of a cyclist. Are you okay with that experiment? Yes, okay, good. Are there any things about that experiment that you're particularly happy about?

Kelly Butler: 7:16

Well, anything that increases family time, outdoor time and movement time I'm in favor of, so I like all of that.

Tom Butler: 7:23

And I think there's a big thing for us at our age which, in about a month and a half, something like that, you're going to be cycling over 60. Yep, so I think there's something that we've really latched onto that at our age we need to take activity seriously.

Kelly Butler: 7:43

Well, for sure I wouldn't say it's any less serious below that age, but certainly continues through that age and beyond.

Tom Butler: 7:52

I would argue that you can get away with being inactive easier when you're younger than when you're older, just from a perspective of metabolism slowing down.

Kelly Butler: 8:04

Well, it depends on what you're getting away with. You're still having breakdown and degeneration of systems. It's just not as visible. So you might be getting away with it, but you're really not. You're just not aware of it, in my opinion.

Tom Butler: 8:19

I think it's a really valid observation. But I would say that you can recover when you're younger and you have breakdown of a system, then you can recover better than when you're older. And I think that, again, just from the perspective of metabolism, if you go a while without any physical activity, if you pick it up again, you're going to recover from it. But I would say at our age we have to be consistent with it.

Kelly Butler: 8:50

Ideally, for sure, yeah.

Tom Butler: 8:52

So then, you know we've embraced activity and active recreation, active vacations and all kinds of things in that realm. Yes, we recently did something that we have never done, and that was that we went out on a camping trip specifically to ride a trail. So we took the bikes and we camped. You know, it was in a yurt, so it was different than, for sure, bikepacking would be, but we specifically went out to go have a cycling adventure, and I don't know that that's something that we've done as a family before.

Kelly Butler: 9:35

No, I don't think so.

Tom Butler: 9:37

How did you find that trip? Did you enjoy that?

Kelly Butler: 9:40

Very much. Yeah, I loved it. I loved where we camped. I loved seeing new places. Being outside, the ease of the year was nice. Just pull up and have a tent there and then to have a trail close by was just ideal. I thought it was a perfect weekend.

Tom Butler: 9:57

And I think that's a model of weekends that I would like to see come, and I think if we do that, then you know we're going to have cycling integrated into our vacations in a really healthy way. That was the first time you've been out on your bike this year, so that's a very different experience than what I'm having, very different experience than what I'm having, and I'm wondering if that's okay with you, if it's okay with you that you're not cycling as much as I'm cycling.

Kelly Butler: 10:32

For sure, you cycle a lot.

Tom Butler: 10:39

I wish people could see your face.

Kelly Butler: 10:40

You spend so much time on the bike. I don't have that much time. I have to be more focused on my fitness goals. I don't have that much time to reach my fitness goals, and so I'm totally okay not spending that much time on the bike.

Tom Butler: 10:54

And that's going to be something that we just have to manage moving forward. When we talk about being a cycling family, there's a mismatch there. That's okay that you aren't going to be out and doing everything that I'm doing on the bicycle. You're not going to be taking as many trips and that's going to show up in your fitness level on the bike. You're not pushing yourself to be a stronger cyclist all the time.

Kelly Butler: 11:48

No, I'm not. I have an e-bike specifically because I can have fun with you, regardless how fit I am on the bike per se. But I am working on fitness goals in other ways. I'd like to be able to take good long hikes. I'm working on my knees so that I can go up and down hills again. I'm working on my knees so that I can go up and down hills again. Those are my current goals. I have to back off on quite a bit right now because my knees are acting up and I really want to strengthen them and guard them and build them up so that I can do things, including riding bikes, longer. But riding a bike doesn't really bother them, but I want to be able to hike. I'd like to go camping and go on hike as well as take a bike ride. So I want pretty broad fitness abilities.

Tom Butler: 12:37

Yeah, I think that you want to be able to function physically and challenge yourself physically. Yeah, and there is an issue with your knees. That has been an issue since you were 25. Yeah, of knees, that isn't ideal, then that means that you've got to spend some time specifically that is dedicated to fixing your knee problems Right, or to at least try to interrupt damage being done to your knees.

Kelly Butler: 13:21

Well, I'm trying to repair it. Well, yeah, well, I'm trying to repair and strengthen, stabilize.

Tom Butler: 13:26

Are you specifically trying to prevent having knee replacement surgery?

Kelly Butler: 13:31

Absolutely.

Tom Butler: 13:32

Yeah.

Kelly Butler: 13:32

It used to be for me a foregone conclusion that I was just going to have knee surgery, but I've totally rejected that idea and I'm committed to not, and I think I'm well on the way.

Tom Butler: 13:42

Now, the cool thing about cycling is the bike that you have does not aggravate your knee issues very much. Is that correct?

Kelly Butler: 13:56

Yeah, very, very minimally. Only if I go on really long rides can I feel a little bit, and even then it's not bad.

Tom Butler: 14:02

And also that's a benefit with the pedal assist, is that if you ever got in a situation, you could add more assist.

Kelly Butler: 14:09

Yeah, absolutely. It's safer to me than walking right now.

Tom Butler: 14:14

honestly, To me, it's such a huge thing to have pedal assist, because I can get a workout and feel comfortable that you don't have to overextend yourself to be riding with me and for us to be a cycling family. I need that peace of mind.

Kelly Butler: 14:39

Yeah, you definitely do, and I do too, and you know that's essential for us to enjoy and be able to do it together. It's just essential. And I have to give up my pride and say, okay, I have e-assist, fine, but I'm okay with that because of what you just said. You know we want to have fun together. I have other fitness goals and we just want to make it as peace-inducing as possible.

Tom Butler: 15:09

If it wasn't for your knees, then you might be able to spend more time. You have a fitness program that is very specialized to your needs and it does take time. It does take time and if it wasn't for that, then you might be able to take more time and maybe try to build up your strength on a bicycle and challenge yourself on a bicycle. And you know the whole thing that you talk about. Your pride is that you really want to see how well you could do without the pedal assist.

Kelly Butler: 15:47

I do. I want to see if I could keep up with you at all.

Tom Butler: 15:50

Yeah, and so that's to me. You know, one of those functions of you can't do everything.

Kelly Butler: 15:59

Right.

Tom Butler: 15:59

And you're not going to be a cyclist.

Kelly Butler: 16:01

Right.

Tom Butler: 16:02

You're going to be part of a cycling family and then we found a bicycle that can support you participating, but you're never going to be into cycling like I'm into cycling.

Kelly Butler: 16:12

I'm not, and part of that is just what I perceive as time commitment to get the fitness goals met on a bike, and it might be a false impression, but my impression is that I can achieve a level of fitness where a bike is part of that but it's not. I can do it in a more compact time in other ways and achieve the fitness that I want.

Tom Butler: 16:32

Is it fair to say for both of us to admit that you don't like cycling as much as I do?

Kelly Butler: 16:39

Yeah, you love it, so I enjoy it. It's really fun, but you love it.

Tom Butler: 16:46

So there's an element of if I go out for three hours on a ride, I'm really enjoying it. I'm not doing that activity to be fit.

Kelly Butler: 16:56

Right, yes.

Tom Butler: 16:58

I don't need three hours to be fit. I could spend far less time on the bicycle. It was just about being fit.

Kelly Butler: 17:06

Okay.

Tom Butler: 17:10

What are you thinking?

Kelly Butler: 17:14

Well, I've not perceived that from you. That's not the way I've seen it presented. I'm just reading it wrong maybe.

Tom Butler: 17:21

So you feel I've communicated with you that I need every minute that I'm on the bike in order to be fit? Yeah, that's interesting. Let me kind of break it down a bit.

Kelly Butler: 17:31

Break it baby.

Tom Butler: 17:33

So this is a little bit of a marital counseling session.

Kelly Butler: 17:36

Oh, no but no, just communicating.

Tom Butler: 17:41

Oh yes, not that we're in distress or anything, we're just open, communicating. There are different things that need to happen in order for me to be the cyclist I want to be. One of those is that, you know, I want to get stronger. I want to have more stamina and be stronger. I can do that in less time than I spend on the bike now. But another layer of that is that I want to do long rides and, from all kinds of perspectives, I need to do long rides, practice long rides if I'm going to do like an event with other people, and so I need to understand the energy utilization it takes me to do 100 miles and I need to know how fast I can go and keep it up for 100 miles. So there's layers there. And then, on top of that, there is the emotional health impact of being out cycling, and I feel like unplugging and going out for a three-hour ride. That's really beneficial to me.

Kelly Butler: 18:56

Yeah, I agree.

Tom Butler: 18:57

So while I'm fully admitting that I could spend less time a week on the bike and still be fit, there's a lot of things about being a cyclist that I don't think come about. You know, just for example, do the bike shorts I have and the seat that I have? Are they sustainable for eight hours on the bike? You know, I'm only going to find that out by spending eight hours on the bike.

Kelly Butler: 19:30

Yeah, but you've done that multiple times, so I'm not sure what you're saying about that.

Tom Butler: 19:34

I think there's still things to learn about what is comfortable and what isn't comfortable for me, so I don't see even admitting that I could do less cycling. I don't think I'm going to get the benefits that I want from cycling, as far as my health are concerned, by cutting back on time, because there's just multifaceted what keeps me cycling.

Kelly Butler: 20:02

So you do need the time on the bike, okay, so again, this is where you do need the time on the bike, Okay, so again, this is where it's a couple.

Tom Butler: 20:12

We're communicating. You're helping yes, I need, but you can't evaluate it just from like my fit. Do you see what I'm saying? I can't justify that I need that much time on the bike by just my fit. Do you see what I'm saying? I can't justify that I need that much time on the bike by just being fit. What I'm asking you to do is to see fitness broader than just are my muscles strong? Am I burning calories? Things like that.

Kelly Butler: 20:42

Yeah, I get that.

Tom Butler: 20:43

And I've seen you as totally open to that, obviously Okay. So we've established that you're not gonna be riding like I get that and I've seen you as totally open to that. Yeah, obviously Okay. So we've established that you're not going to be riding like I'm riding. You're not going to be putting as much time on the bike as I'm putting on the bike. One of the things that I'm going to do is I'm going to participate in more organized events than I think you're going to participate in. Do you want us to be moving towards a place where any event that I'm doing you're going to participate in? Do you want us to be moving towards a place where any event that I'm doing, you're going to do it with me, or are you okay with the place that I'm going to go do events and be gone for the day at event without you?

Kelly Butler: 21:22

No, I'm okay with that.

Tom Butler: 21:23

Okay, it makes it tougher if McKenna and Gary and I all three are doing an event and you're kind of left alone to provide support.

Kelly Butler: 21:35

Mm-hmm, but I only see that as the STP. So far, the only thing that I have written for support well, not quite but primarily is the STP, and I was planning to write the STP this year, but other life events and responsibilities is precluding that this year.

Tom Butler: 21:52

Well, let's talk about that more in a little bit, because I want to introduce another aspect into that decision about doing the STP. But you're not planning in the STP case means that you're in the car, you know by yourself driving the things. That's not fantastic.

Kelly Butler: 22:19

No, it's not fantastic, but at this point in my life there are other things that I have a hard time finding time to do, and so it's not like it's wasted time. I can utilize the time. So it's not ideal and I would like to move out of this period before too long, but I'm okay being alone, I mean it's just. You're right, it's not ideal, but it's manageable, it's doable. I have things I need to do and I can do it, and it's all right.

Tom Butler: 22:45

We need to find you a support buddy.

Kelly Butler: 22:48

Support buddy yeah.

Tom Butler: 22:50

So we need to find you someone whose husband is doing the STP and she's doing support. So we're putting a call out there for a support group.

Kelly Butler: 23:05

Actually, currently I plan on doing some continuing education, so no, nobody's going to enjoy that with me. So, I've got boring things to do that I need to do by myself. Maybe next year we'll see you're gonna.

Tom Butler: 23:20

You're. You've got your time booked up, yes, with stuff. Yeah, hopefully that really works for you, like you got an ipad or whatever and you're just able to knock out a bunch of stuff over two days. One of the factors in all of this kind of being a cycling family and what you participate in, in my opinion, is sharing the road with cars. I think that at this point, we're only looking for experiences where you're not sharing the road with cars. I think one of the things that was enjoyable about the camping trip that we did and the bike ride that we did was that we were on a trail and we were not interfacing with cars. Basically that whole ride.

Kelly Butler: 24:17

Sure absolutely.

Tom Butler: 24:18

Is there a way for you to communicate how it feels for you to be on the road with cars right now?

Kelly Butler: 24:26

Well, it's not a horrible thing. It's just not my idea of a really fun ride and it's not, like you know, I can't have any time on the road. It's just that I just much more enjoy being away from people and cars and having to worry about my line and keeping up and not, and it just complicates it and just kind of takes some of the enjoyment out of it from safety reasons and congestion reasons.

Tom Butler: 25:00

The safety aspect of it. Do you have a real feeling of fear when you're on the road that something could happen with an interaction with a car?

Kelly Butler: 25:11

I'm not riding with fear. Something could happen with an interaction with a car. I'm not riding with fear. I have more thoughts of fear afterwards than during or even before. I mean, it's not like I worry about it, it's not like I'm stressing about it, and when I'm riding it's just hey, I'm riding and it's going to be okay and we're going to be fine. But afterwards I think back on it, it's like, eh, that's not ideal.

Tom Butler: 25:32

From a safety perspective.

Kelly Butler: 25:34

I mean, there's other things that I don't like about it, but from a safety perspective, it's not like I'm trembling or just like constantly thinking about it. It's just you're thinking about how to be safe but I'm not like, oh no, I'm going to get hit.

Tom Butler: 25:48

When a car passes you, do you feel that sense of vulnerability sometimes at those points?

Kelly Butler: 25:58

I don't know. I feel like an imposition. I feel like I'm annoying the cars.

Tom Butler: 26:03

Well, that's an interesting thought. So if you felt like drivers of cars were looking at bicycles and saying, hey, they belong here too. You have every right to the road. I'm glad you're out getting healthy you know a whole bunch of positive thoughts as they're coming up on you then that might change the experience of being on the road for you.

Kelly Butler: 26:26

Yeah, yeah, it would.

Tom Butler: 26:28

But instead, what do you think they're thinking?

Kelly Butler: 26:31

I'm slowing them down. You know you shouldn't be out here. This is for cars and you're annoying. You're an imposition.

Tom Butler: 26:39

Yeah, I think that's true. I think there's a percentage of drivers that are like bikes don't belong on roads that cars drive on, and I think that's a factor. And again, cycling together if you and I are cycling together, I think if we eliminate that, we go a long way to making our cycling adventures together more enjoyable. How are you planning on eliminating that by not sharing a road with cars?

Kelly Butler: 27:10

Oh, I see, yeah, definitely.

Tom Butler: 27:13

So I think that's right now where we're at. I think there would be some exceptions to that, you know, but I think, for the most part, as we're planning out, there's ways for us to avoid sharing road with cars, and that's what we did on this trip that we took to the Olympic Discovery Trail road with cars, and that's what we did on this trip that we took to the Olympic Discovery Trail.

Kelly Butler: 27:39

Yeah, so is there a shortage of places like that to ride? It seems like the group rides don't frequently do that. They seem to be road rides most of the time.

Tom Butler: 27:42

I think there's a couple elements to that.

Tom Butler: 27:44

Probably the biggest thing is that you know if we're out on a trail as a couple cyclists, or you know even if we've got a group of five or six people cycling together on a trail as a couple cyclists, or you know even if we've got a group of five or six people cycling together on a trail, then that's not disrupting the trail.

Tom Butler: 28:02

But if you dump hundreds of people on a trail, then it's really disruptive to the trail because the trail is a multi-use trail. It's not a cycling trail, it's a multi-use trail and so dumping, you know, hundreds of people or thousands of people on a trail, it really changes the dynamics of the trail. So I think that that's one reason that organized rides will be on roads. I think another reason is that they're not very connected. You know like to go from Seattle to Portland all on trails is just not possible, so you're going to be on roads. And then I think another factor is, for the most part, if you're an experienced cyclist and you're on a road like a backcountry road that doesn't have much traffic at all there's plenty of opportunities for cars to pass and give a wide distance, then I think that riding on those roads are okay.

Kelly Butler: 29:15

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 29:16

So I think ride organizers really look for those roads as part of the route, yeah, and see that is pretty good. But again for us, for now, I think that it's better that we just find ways to avoid cars.

Kelly Butler: 29:32

For the most part, yeah.

Tom Butler: 29:33

So here's a question that you might have a hard time answering. Okay, okay. How many cycling trips is the right amount to do a year for you?

Kelly Butler: 29:47

Yeah, you're right, who knows?

Tom Butler: 29:48

So here's one aspect of this my cycling season is a 12-month season.

Kelly Butler: 29:56

your cycling season season is not a 12-month season well, you've been on your trainer all winter long, so don't give me are you?

Tom Butler: 30:12

okay? Let's be realistic. Okay, if it's miserably miserable weather right out there, I do appreciate the trainer I've been appreciating it a little too much.

Kelly Butler: 30:25

I'm seeing you on it when it's beautiful and sunny outside and I'm like, okay, buddy, you're missing the fresh air. You're not doing. This is not the way I think you really want it okay.

Tom Butler: 30:40

So there is this misinterpretation of why I'm on the bike. So there's other reasons that I'm on the trainer in the house, then it's bad weather outside, so I don't know that. That's fair, believe me it's not totally fair but I would.

Tom Butler: 30:58

There are times that I'm on the trainer, that I'm looking outside. It's beautiful and I wish with all my heart that I could be out there. You know, part of the problem is that it does take time to go out on the road and I don't really enjoy going for 10 miles out on the road. You know, if I'm going to go out on the road I like to go for like 25 miles. So if I'm just going to do 10 miles to burn off breakfast, I do have a tendency to jump on the trainer. Yeah, but your concern about the trainer has been noted and it doesn't seem near as fun.

Kelly Butler: 31:42

It's like you like to ride outside, it just doesn't seem. I'm just feeling sad for your body.

Tom Butler: 31:48

I'm telling you it's absolutely not as fun. It feels like your time just slows down when you're on a trip. Yeah, when you go outside on the bike, time speeds up. But yeah, so it absolutely so. I'm not. I'm not like cheating, okay, but it is convenient and you know there are some aspects of it that do make it attractive. But I'm noting that you think I need to get outside more.

Kelly Butler: 32:20

It's your journey. Well, okay. So you were saying I'm not a 12-month bicyclist. Where were you going with that? What were you trying to get to?

Tom Butler: 32:29

I think it's fair. I think it's a fair comment.

Kelly Butler: 32:32

That I'm not a 12 month bicyclist.

Tom Butler: 32:34

Yes.

Kelly Butler: 32:35

Absolutely Okay.

Tom Butler: 32:36

So let's say that you're a four month cyclist. Are you comfortable with saying you're a four month cyclist?

Kelly Butler: 32:49

Sure.

Tom Butler: 32:51

Did you want to extend that the five months or do you think four is pretty good?

Kelly Butler: 32:55

What's that? April, may, june, july, may June, july, august, four or five.

Tom Butler: 33:01

Yeah. So looking at our area, I think about this time of year we're in mid-May about this time of year, I think it starts getting nice.

Kelly Butler: 33:12

Well, we've had for the last month, I'd say, time so we could go.

Tom Butler: 33:16

Yeah, but reliably. Yeah, I think reliably about mid-May it starts getting nice. So that would be June, July, August, September would be four months.

Kelly Butler: 33:30

So six months. Then we went camping and cycling in April.

Tom Butler: 33:35

Yeah, so I'm saying five months reliably.

Kelly Butler: 33:40

Okay.

Tom Butler: 33:42

I think if we're going to plan like cycling adventures, then I think we're looking at five months. Oh, I see.

Kelly Butler: 33:49

I was just thinking hopping on the bike and going, but I wasn't thinking planned adventures.

Tom Butler: 33:53

Yeah. So I think, yeah, I think if we see a nice day, let's jump on the bike and go. I'm over that. But to plan out, you know, a trip or something, I think five months.

Kelly Butler: 34:03

Okay, here's a question about a cycling family. Does that mean we don't do anything else, active on any trips?

Tom Butler: 34:12

What I would say to that is basically yes.

Kelly Butler: 34:16

No, I say no.

Tom Butler: 34:19

So the thing is that this conversation we're having about how many trips you can do, it's a serious conversation, because it's like you're busy. You've got more on your plate now because we're taking care of your mother more, and so we don't have many times that we can go out and do things now. So if we eliminate something you know from a cycling trip, then that takes one of only a few things away. So I would like to focus on cycling. The question is, what are you not getting by cycling?

Kelly Butler: 35:06

Variety.

Tom Butler: 35:07

What variety would you want?

Kelly Butler: 35:11

Hiking and jet skiing.

Tom Butler: 35:13

Okay, so these are two different topics that I want to cover both of them. Oh, no One. Hiking Okay, your knees can't take hiking.

Kelly Butler: 35:27

I can't do it right now.

Tom Butler: 35:29

Yeah, so we're not considering hiking right now. No, now, yeah, so we're not. We're not considering hiking right now. No, you know, hopefully we can consider that future, but let's have that discussion in the future. I would like to do a backpacking trip as a family every year, but right now your knees aren't in a condition for us to consider that, so we should consider that okay, now cycling is enough.

Kelly Butler: 35:53

Okay, okay now wait, wait, wait, jet skiing okay the way I ride it's like it's active this comes down.

Tom Butler: 36:07

Listeners of this podcast, I'm saying this for your benefit. This comes down to a difference when it comes to recreation for you and me, because we're not talking to sit down jet ski, we're talking to stand up jet ski.

Tom Butler: 36:19

I understand what you're talking about. You're talking about you like a jet ski, that you're doing a whole lot of manipulation and everything about and having a lot of fun going fast, and you want to be doing a lot of sharp turns, a lot of, you know, throwing the jet ski around, which you did a lot when you're younger. This is part of what energizes you. If we went back in time, you were way more likely to become a motorcycle racer, like a dirt bike racer, than you were a cyclist. You like motorized things, you like going fast, all that stuff. However, I see two big issues with that what, what?

Kelly Butler: 37:12

I'm not 25 anymore.

Tom Butler: 37:16

Well, one is that we don't have an abundance of time, and so I really feel like we need to be active when we're recreating, and you cannot be active on a jet ski.

Kelly Butler: 37:31

Those are fighting words.

Tom Butler: 37:32

I know that you have a hard time accepting this. I'm here to help you accept this.

Kelly Butler: 37:39

Now we shouldn't even be talking about it, because I haven't jet skied in a long time and we're not going to do much of it, but it's just an example of something that is fun to do outside and for me, is active.

Tom Butler: 37:50

For you, it was active. Uh-huh, you want to step on a jet ski. You know a stand-up jet ski and you want to abuse that jet ski and at the same time, you're abusing your body and you're just not in a place where you can do that right now.

Kelly Butler: 38:12

All right, I feel like people don't need to hear me whine about wanting to test game process.

Tom Butler: 38:18

I think people do want to hear you process this. I wish I could do a show of hands. Who wants to hear Kelly process this? But if you get to the point where you have put in a lot of work and you've built yourself up to the point where you can thrash a jet ski and not hurt yourself, I'd be for that. But you're just not there. I mean, I've seen you ride a jet ski, I know what you're doing to the jet ski and I know what the forces you're exerting is doing to your body and you're just not there. You're gonna pull something okay, what's the benchmark?

Kelly Butler: 38:57

I get there.

Tom Butler: 38:58

I don't know. We can figure that out. We can do some work on that to see how we would know that, as you're thrashing the jet ski, that your body is safe. We can do that work okay, but for now I think a jet ski, as fun as it sounds, it's something that's not gonna be that helpful. But the truth of the matter is, in being a cycling family, you know, we're not being like a motorcycle family right and I.

Tom Butler: 39:30

I think I personally have to have that because I need to stay strong, I need to be active. When we're doing recreation, I need to be active.

Kelly Butler: 39:39

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 39:40

I like motorcycles I used to own a motorcycle but I need to be active. I need to be flexing muscles when I'm doing recreation. There's another element of this that I think is super relevant. One thing that I think about you riding jet skis is I think about your shoulders.

Kelly Butler: 39:58

You don't need to go there. It's going to be longer. Before you let me ride one, so let's not go there.

Tom Butler: 40:03

No, we're going there. You think that was going to shut it down.

Kelly Butler: 40:10

I'm working on it though.

Tom Butler: 40:12

Well, you are and I'm super proud of you and what you're doing. You're doing some awesome stuff, but here's where it factors in. There was a hope that we had that we could. Part of the desire to be off the road is that we could do gravel riding, and I think we still have that hope. That's something that you still see as attractive, right?

Kelly Butler: 40:38

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 40:39

And you experienced it when we did the Port Townsend tour that we did a three-day tour, we experienced some dirt trails and they were really packed down. It was really smooth, packed down gravel trail. You know it was more dirt packed dirt than like big uh rocks that you might find on some gravel trail. But super enjoyed that ride. There's beautiful scenery along the coast and no cars and that was a really enjoyable experience and so we're seeking out to have more of a gravel experience.

Kelly Butler: 41:22

So for me some of the most enjoyable bike riding that we've had was we were out at Port Townsend on the Larry Scott Trail on kind of a packed down gravel dirt trails, and there was something about that that was just really fun and really enjoyable. I don't know all the elements of that. I do think that it was is more an element of you're surrounded by nature rather than surrounded by cars and cement and rails and side rails and all that kind of stuff. It was just really fun riding through trees. There's something about that that just really resonates with me and it was really fun.

Kelly Butler: 41:59

So I guess that's why we've been considering a gravel bike, you know, so we can do more of that. I'm trying to figure out, I mean, what we did there was actually completely fine on my cruise bike, but thinking that if we're going to pursue more of that then we're not going to find such beautifully packed down easy to ride trails and there'd be more of a need for a gravel bike. So we've been looking at that. But that at this point seems to me maybe is still a little bit hard for my shoulders.

Tom Butler: 42:29

One of the factors here is that we just don't know how much of that perfect trail packed down dirt, really small gravel, that we would find around. You know, hopefully we can find a lot of that, but I think it's not highly likely.

Tom Butler: 42:49

I don't know, I just don't know, but we need to get out and explore which you know. It's part of what we're going to do. But the truth of the matter is, even though the cruise bike is really good for you, you are not able to absorb bumps with your legs and arms like you would on a traditional bike Right, and so the roughness of the road gets transported into your body on the cruise bike. And so on the cruise bike you currently have.

Kelly Butler: 43:29

Yeah, on my current cruise bike the S40.

Tom Butler: 43:32

Which is an S40. So we decided that maybe we could find a mountain bike with suspension that you'd be able to use on gravel, and we could find a bike that would fit you and everything and it'd be okay. So we set out to do that. How would you describe what we learned from our attempt to do that?

Kelly Butler: 43:57

Well, I would describe it as bittersweet, because it's really fun riding the bike, but I was on the bike for a very short time and my shoulders my left shoulder in particular was not happy.

Tom Butler: 44:08

Yeah, so in addition to your knees, then you do have some shoulder issues.

Kelly Butler: 44:12

Yes.

Tom Butler: 44:13

And our hope would be that you could strengthen them in a way that it wouldn't be an issue on a bike. But we're just not going to be able. You know, for this year we're just not going to be able to have that as an option. Maybe down the road, but you were on the bike for maybe 20 minutes, 25 minutes.

Kelly Butler: 44:31

At the most.

Tom Butler: 44:32

But even in that amount of time, then your shoulders aren't in a place where you can have that position.

Kelly Butler: 44:40

Yeah, my left shoulder, which is the one that's impacted by my work the most. You can have that position. Yeah, my left shoulder, which is the one that's impacted by my work the most you know yeah 30 years of my work has impacted that.

Tom Butler: 44:47

Yeah and it was enough that it doesn't feel like a bike fit is going to fix that, or it's going to fix that. Yeah, when you said bittersweet, you loved that bike, right? Yeah, yeah, I did, and that was a Trek Marlin Plus 8, if anybody's curious, and it's like if there was any bike out there that you would be attracted to. I think that bike was like a really good bike for you.

Kelly Butler: 45:16

Well, it's the only one I tried, but I did love it.

Tom Butler: 45:18

We've tried other bikes and you know you had a mountain bike in the past, which was fine at the time, yeah. The features and everything on this bike. There were just a lot of really good features.

Kelly Butler: 45:30

Yeah, there were fun features.

Tom Butler: 45:32

And to go in different directions than that Marlin Plus 8, then it would be getting into more aggressive of a mountain bike and that's not going to be right for you. Or if we went the other direction, it would be more of a hybrid kind of a road bike and I just don't think that's as aggressive from a shock absorption perspective and everything that we were looking for. So I think your experience with that bike means for now, a traditional bike isn't an option.

Kelly Butler: 46:02

Right Boo.

Tom Butler: 46:04

Boo-hoo, but that doesn't mean that a new bike isn't on the horizon for you. Maybe, we should talk about what the dynamics are around you getting a new bike. For now, you're going to stay with cruise bike.

Kelly Butler: 46:23

Right.

Tom Butler: 46:24

Yes, you've appreciated your cruise bike, I believe.

Kelly Butler: 46:27

I have. I've loved it. I really have I mean the comfort for with my body challenges with knees, wrists and shoulders, it's been amazing. It's just handled those issues completely. It is fun to ride. And the e-assist I have to say, as much as I sometimes don't like the thought of it, the e-assist has been really fun and really useful and so it's just been a great bike. I don't want to get rid of it at all.

Tom Butler: 47:00

I think one of the biggest things is that you hadn't been on a bike for months, and then we went on this trip. We did 20 miles, which is an incredibly long way, but still it was enough, and then you didn't have any pain.

Kelly Butler: 47:15

Zero.

Tom Butler: 47:16

And so the position of the cruise bike right now makes cycling possible for you.

Kelly Butler: 47:22

Right, yeah, absolutely.

Tom Butler: 47:24

But the problem is again if we were going to go on some rougher roads then all the bumps and everything in the road would transfer to your body.

Kelly Butler: 47:33

We've tried it and it's not fun. Yeah, it's not fun.

Tom Butler: 47:37

But there is another option.

Kelly Butler: 47:38

Yeah, possibly.

Tom Butler: 47:40

So talk about that option.

Kelly Butler: 47:42

But there is another option, yeah, possibly, so talk about that option. Well, a cruise bike has another model called the Q45 that has suspension and is a little bit more upright, so we can give it a try. I mean, I can go test ride it. I don't know, it's an option, it's a possibility.

Tom Butler: 47:57

Are there things about the Q45 that you don't like?

Kelly Butler: 48:03

I don't like how it looks, as much I don't know Well what is about the look that you don't like? I don't know, just the frame doesn't look as smooth, I don't know.

Tom Butler: 48:15

Oh, interesting, isn't that funny. It looks a little more clunky.

Kelly Butler: 48:18

Yeah, yeah, and my understanding when we were looking at which one to buy. I mean, it wouldn't be as good for road biking when we're doing yeah.

Tom Butler: 48:28

I don't know. I think you know we got when we got the S40, so just if you're curious about cruise bike and as a recumbent option, you should go to cruisebikecom C-R-U-Z-B-I-K-Ecom and you can see everything there. But they have a V20, which is their most aerodynamic bike and it's really the bike that people that want to use them for racing get. And then they have the S40 that Kelly currently has and that's you're not laid back as far. So the 20 and the 40 kind of relate to how far you lean back, and then the Q45 is up a little more.

Kelly Butler: 49:16

But also but it's also variable.

Tom Butler: 49:18

Yeah, it has some adjustment, yeah, and so if we knew then what we know now, I think we probably would have gone with the Q45.

Kelly Butler: 49:26

Yeah, very possibly yeah.

Tom Butler: 49:28

And so this aspect of having some suspension. The seat is separated from the frame by a shock absorber. By a shock absorber, the ability to have that is, I think, going to help unlock some things for us cycling together?

Kelly Butler: 49:49

Yeah, but are those things things that you're interested in too? Are you interested in more mountain biking? Gravel riding Are you interested in that too?

Tom Butler: 49:58

Here's what I think gravel riding opens up One I do think that there's a lot of places that you can go and feel like you're out, away from people, you know, when you're gravel riding, and I think that's really attractive to me. I'm also really interested in doing some gravel riding, bikepacking trips Really interested in that, and so I want to be able to do that. But I think, for you again, I'm going to enjoy the cycling no matter what, but for you, I think, your enjoyment when we were riding the Larry Scott Trail that really should be taken in account when we're planning trips together to find things that you really enjoy doing on the bike, and I think gravel riding would definitely be one of those things. I think the thing that you would have to get over is how upright you look when you're on a Q45.

Kelly Butler: 50:57

Maybe, possibly I might like it better, I don't know.

Tom Butler: 51:01

To me it is definitely inefficient. The position that you're in is really inefficient, and if you've got a headwind, you're catching a lot of wind. Just being up a little bit more, you're catching a lot of wind, and so to me the q45 is not as attractive because of the position that you're in from that perspective. But when you've got pedal assist, then that takes that away. Don't come with motors, so we would definitely have to get a motor fitted to that bike again. That does mean something.

Kelly Butler: 51:42

What.

Tom Butler: 51:43

What do you think it means?

Kelly Butler: 51:45

I have to give up my S40?.

Tom Butler: 51:47

Well, that's not necessarily what it means, but you know the investment that we made in the S40. Yes, and putting a motor on it pretty much doubles the cost. So there's a question of do you give up the S40? Do you keep the S40? And we go ahead and put out the dollars to get a Q45 and have a motor put on it. That's a decision that's going to have to be made.

Kelly Butler: 52:19

Yep.

Tom Butler: 52:26

Well, am I worth it, Kelly? No, the answer to that question. You're absolutely worth it Be able to go on cycling trips with you. It's just fantastic. I love it.

Kelly Butler: 52:34

I really don't want to give up my S40.

Tom Butler: 52:36

I know that you don't, and I think there are ways to do this where you don't have to give up your S40. Maybe give up the electric assist on the S40 and we put that motor on the Q45. I don't know, but I definitely don't think you should give up the S40 until you're ready to give up the S40. How's that?

Kelly Butler: 52:54

Okay, deal.

Tom Butler: 52:56

We don't know for sure that the Q45 is going to solve the problem, but we are going to do a test drive of it and uh, and hopefully you know, we find that the, the shock takes a lot of the, the bumps out of the road, but we don't know. And there's one other issue too one of the biggest advantages with the s40 is that you're able to rest your neck.

Kelly Butler: 53:19

I don don't think that's going to be a problem on the Q45. You don't think?

Tom Butler: 53:27

so no, okay, you're upright more so you don't really need support for it?

Kelly Butler: 53:29

I don't think, but if they don't have any support?

Tom Butler: 53:31

I don't know. Yeah, we'll see. Okay, so two things that we're going to need to figure out, and we know a place that has a Q45 that we can go test ride it. Okay, I want to circle back to something that I don't think that we actually finalized, that is, given these parameters, we can do gravel riding. We've got you on a Q45 and it works, and we can do gravel riding. You feel like you're out in nature. More you're away from cars, more there's there's just a lot of things that make it enjoyable for you. How many cycling trips together are we going to do in five months?

Kelly Butler: 54:13

What does a trip consist of? Is it all overnight?

Tom Butler: 54:15

I think it's overnight. I think we drive someplace, we spend the night, we go for a ride the next day and we come home. You know, we drive someplace. New experience, someplace new.

Kelly Butler: 54:28

Three.

Tom Butler: 54:29

Three. I think that's fair. I think one a month is just too much, yeah, so Currently, okay, I like that a lot, and we need to figure out a way to make those trips attractive to our kids too, so we can do family vacations together, because that's really fun.

Kelly Butler: 54:48

Or if we can't entice the kids, then there's an invitation out there for other people to join us.

Tom Butler: 54:54

I like that a lot. We haven't developed a whole group of cycling friends, but we really should work on doing that. Yeah, one more subject to talk about quickly, and that's my diet. What is your thoughts? I've made this change and you were a you're a large part of why I made this change. What is your evaluation at this point of the benefit of making this change?

Kelly Butler: 55:20

Well, I see it as very promising from what we've seen, very promising, and the benefit of getting a much higher level of nutrition in consistently has long lasting implications, not just blood sugar control but from overall wellness. So I see it as very promising.

Tom Butler: 55:38

So that was one of the reasons you were attracted to this thing, because you felt there was more diversity as far as nutrition is concerned.

Kelly Butler: 55:45

Yeah, More nutritional density by far.

Tom Butler: 55:47

Okay, okay, how are you feeling at this point about my compliance?

Kelly Butler: 55:52

You really want me to answer that.

Tom Butler: 55:56

I think it's good to be open. It's part of the journey to be open.

Kelly Butler: 56:05

It's part of the journey, well, as they say there's. It's not a straight line from a to b, from the bottom to the top of the journey, but so you had some good start and you've blown it big time and, I think, sabotage your progress. But it is what it is and I'm I'm just trying to back off and let you do it your way and I hope it works out in the end. I love how you snuck in sabotage Well, I didn't sneak it in, I railroaded it in. I mean, in your mind there's a possibility that I'm sabotaging because I don't want to eat this way. No, you were sabotaging your progress, not sabotaging the Well. I don't think your intention is to sabotage the program. If that's the case, then I'm really going to be sad. But I was just talking about I think you put a big dent in your progress and made the journey harder for yourself.

Tom Butler: 57:04

Okay, I appreciate your support in this change. It takes a lot more cooking, and I've appreciated your willingness to help with that. I've not embraced this thing. I do like some things that I've seen, but there's part of it that I have problems with too. For now I'm making a commitment to you that I'm going to stick with this program, you know, and see it through for the six weeks.

Kelly Butler: 57:32

Six months.

Tom Butler: 57:33

Well, I'm going to see it through for the six weeks. The six weeks is the insulin reset.

Kelly Butler: 57:39

Are you starting over then?

Tom Butler: 57:41

I don't think it's that specific. I think that I have had some bumps, but I think that that's part of the progress. As you said, they expect that. So I think at the end of six weeks then I'm going to have enough data to really evaluate this program.

Kelly Butler: 57:57

Okay, if you stick with it for the rest of the six weeks, cool.

Tom Butler: 58:00

Awesome. I will do my best.

Kelly Butler: 58:03

I know I'm not expecting perfection, but close, close to perfection.

Tom Butler: 58:08

You can see perfection from where I am is the way that you want it to be. All right, kelly Butler, this has been awesome. I love talking bikes with you and I love again this clarifying what it means for us to be a cycling family, and I think there's these three cycling trips that we take in a year and I hope those get more and more adventurous as time goes on. I'd like to see a bike and barge trip in our future. I'd love that, and maybe visit some areas, take a week cycling at some point, but that we really focus on. For us right now, being a cycling family means three trips a year. Yeah, I like it Awesome.

Tom Butler: 58:56

Well, thank you, it's been fun, it's fun, I like having you here. So, talk to you later, okay, bye see you around. I will see you around bye, bye.

Tom Butler: 59:17

I thought that was a really valuable conversation. As you can hear, kelly doesn't get the same level of enjoyment out of cycling as I do. However, I think it is awesome that we can still figure out how to make cycling a big part of our family time. I love this aspect of the bicycle it's a device with a lot of flexibility. Because of Kelly's knees, we couldn't be something like a skiing family, but with cycling we have been able to find a bike that accommodates her individual physical challenges.

Tom Butler: 59:45

After we recorded, kelly mentioned that she felt bad that we talked a lot about jet skiing. She felt like she was whining about it, but I felt like our discussion illustrated an important point. Kelly and I enjoy different activities. I don't believe that she's in a good place right now to thrash her body on a jet ski, but also I need to be keeping my eye open for things that we can do as a couple that feed her desire for speed. It will be our ability to craft activities that we both enjoy that will allow us to have a sustainable active recreation focus. I hope that you are finding active recreation activities with your family, including some great cycling adventures. Ideally, you are enjoying the fresh air, the sun on your skin and some beautiful scenery. And remember age is just a gear change.