Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 Podcast, season 3, episode 27,. Revel Revolution Ride and I'm your host, tom Butler. I have decided to change the time for the Cycling Over 60 Zwift ride, so now, instead of Zwift Thursday, we'll have Zwift Tuesday. I'm also moving the time to 4.30 pm, pacific time and reducing the distance to 12.5 miles. If you ride Zwift, consider joining the Cycling Over 60 Zwift Club and joining me for Zwift Tuesday. Also, whether you're riding or not, jump in for the Zoom chat. That will happen at the same time. I would love to meet you via Zoom. Send me an email for the Zoom link. You can find my email in the show notes. I'll also put the Zoom call ID and password in a Cycling Over 60 Strava post. Unfortunately, they don't allow links there.

Tom Butler: 1:03

We did our first bike trip on the Olympic Discovery Trail last weekend and it was awesome. We really liked the funky place where we stayed. If you like to have a little more adventurous campsite, check out the Soul Duck Rainforest Retreat. We stayed in a tent provided by the well quote retreat. It was an awesome tent. There was an air mattress provided, but Kelly and I are wimps so we brought an extra cushion to put on top of the air mattress and that made our bed very comfortable. There was a cot in the tent which would have made it very easy to fit three people. We ended up having McKenna and Guerin stay one of the nights. That made it a little tight, but it still worked. The tent cost us $70 a night for the two of us. There was an extra charge for additional guests. At the campground there are spaces to bring your own tent if you like. I think the tent sites are like $46 a night. We had electricity in the tent and the host provided a heater. Now the heater only put out a little heat, which I think was good since it wasn't a tent. The heater took just enough of an edge off from a night that was pretty cold. We did need some heavy blankets to be warm and Kelly should have worn heavier sleeping clothes the first night.

Tom Butler: 2:13

The only downside to the retreat were the bathrooms. Everything there was a little run down, but it was very functional. However, one of the toilets got really dirty and it wasn't cleaned while we were there. That still left two other toilets and we never had to wait to use them. There were also good showers, but again the place was a little rustic.

Tom Butler: 2:34

We were in campsite number two and it was right next to the Olympic Discovery Trail. Some of the sites were down a short steep hill but it was easy to ride our bikes from our site to the trail. We rode 10 miles on the Olympic Discovery Trail to Spruce Railroad Trailhead and turned around there. The return trip was a consistent two to three percent grade, but nothing too challenging. It was typical rail to trail grade From the Spruce Railroad Trailhead. We could have continued on another 24 miles to Port Angeles, but we were looking for an easy trip. The trail runs alongside Crescent Lake, which is beautiful. However, for most of the ride the trail is quite elevated above the lake, but the view of the lake through the trees was wonderful.

Tom Butler: 3:15

I think a fantastic trip would be to start in Port Angeles and ride to the Soul Dock Rainforest Resort. That would be 34 miles one way then spend the night in one of the tents and ride back the next day. You wouldn't need to carry a tent or a mattress and possibly not a stove. There are a couple of areas of the campground that are shared kitchen spaces. However, we didn't use them, so I would confirm the stove's work if you want to use that option and there is a fire pit, so that is an option for cooking. We booked our tent through Airbnb and it was easy communicating with the host, logan. Another option would be to make a longer trip out of it. It's a 53-mile ride from Port Townsend to Port Angeles and then 35 miles from Port Angeles to the campground. That would make for a really cool four-day trip. To turn it into a three-day trip, it would be possible to ride the 87 miles from the campground to Port Townsend in one day, but it is 4,500 feet of climbing.

Tom Butler: 4:10

The final option that I would consider is starting in Sequim, washington. There are plenty of nice camping options in Sequim, on the Salish Sea. Starting in Sequim would give a 52 mile ride to the Soldock Rainforest Retreat with 2,789 feet of climbing. The return trip would be 1,800 feet of elevation. A word of warning just east of Port Angeles is a section of the Olympic Discovery Trail that is very steep, with a narrow, sharp turn. This part of the trail is definitely not part of an abandoned railroad. I truly believe that this is a trip worth traveling to do. The Olympic Peninsula is really beautiful. There really isn't an easy way to get to the area without a car. Sadly it isn't an option to take a ferry from Seattle to Port Angeles. If that was possible, then you could fly with your bike to SeaTac Airport, assemble it there and then you could take your bike on the light rail and get off close to the ferry terminal To get to the Port Angeles area. It is either a multi-day bike ride or a car trip.

Tom Butler: 5:10

One idea I thought about was to ship a bike. Bikeflightscom quoted $120.21 to ship a bike I randomly put in Chicago to Squim just to see the cost. So obviously that cost would change for other areas. The quote included a $34 charge for insurance. It would take a week for the bike to get from Chicago to Squim with regular ground shipping. Second day air would cost $258 compared to the $84 charge for ground. A cardboard bike flights box that would fit my Specialized Rebay would cost $90. Currently the website says they're all sold out of that size. Someone online recommended going into a local bike shop and seeing if they have any bike boxes that they would be willing to give for free. The bike flights box advantage is that it comes with everything needed to secure the bike inside the box. Getting a box from a bike shop probably means figuring that out yourself.

Tom Butler: 6:07

I chose Squim as a destination because I'm familiar with a great bike shop in Squim called Ben's Bikes. I called and they use bike flights a lot. They would receive a bike shipped there and assemble it for $80. I didn't ask what they would charge just to receive a bike without assembly. I do think it is easy to drop off a boxed bike at any UPS location and bike flights have really good instructions on how to box it up. And picking up at UPS might be just as easy. But of course then you would have to do your own assembly. One thing the person said that I talked to at Ben's Bikes is it kind of depends on how much is required to tune the bike up after shipping. My hope would be that not much. I think what BikeFlex provides for securing your bikes would mean that there wouldn't be much tweaked in the process.

Tom Butler: 6:58

I did look at Ben's Bikes options for rentals. While I don't like their option for road bikes, if you would like they do rent e-bikes. The e-bike example they provided was a Trek Alliant Plus 7. That is a $75 a day rental. I'd want to check about keeping it overnight before relying on that as an option. Benz also has a Cat Trek Electric Recumbent Trek for rent and that's two days for $175. I would find that kind of fun to try out Again. I think this is an amazing area of the country and I would recommend anyone considering a trip out to explore it by bike. And if you're part of the Olympic Peninsula Visitor Bureau, you're welcome for the free promotion. One final note before we get to the interview.

Tom Butler: 7:41

This week, since the Foothills Trail Bridge was demolished that connects the plateau I live on to the valley. I have been mostly riding on the plateau. That means not too many hills. While I typically look to ride down to the valley in the south, last week I decided to head north. The Green River Valley is on that side of the plateau. I was exploring what I hope to be part of a 100-mile loop when the Foothills Trail Bridge gets repaired.

Tom Butler: 8:07

This summer I found a route that I'm really excited about as a training ride for Seattle to Portland. This year I'm looking to ride a 40-mile section. That route includes 1,600 feet of climbing, and that climbing is mostly on two hills. Each hill keeps me right on the edge of my climbing ability, so it's a real challenge for me. I think it is perfect to build my climbing capacity. The only problem with the route is that there are a couple sections that aren't very good because of traffic. However, I think they'll be fine for an early Sunday morning ride and maybe even mid-morning when people are at work. I'm confident if I keep pushing myself on these rides, I'll be set up for a great STP.

Tom Butler: 8:54

I talk a lot about Cascade Bicycle Club because I think they are an example of what it looks like when you get a significant number of people supporting cycling in an area. I do like it when I get to talk to leaders from the club, and this week I'm pleased to interview one of their board members, gina Kavish. As you will hear, gina is a special force in cycling in the Pacific Northwest. Here's our discussion. I love it that the podcast gives me the opportunity to talk to really interesting people, and this week I get to introduce you to one of them. Thank you, gina Kavish, for coming on board.

Gina Kavesh: 9:26

Welcome. Thanks for having me, I'm excited.

Tom Butler: 9:34

Now you're a board member at Cascade Bicycle Club and have been described as a matriarch of the local women's cycling scene, and I feel fortunate to have you share your thoughts with us today I'm matriarchs, I guess better than grandma, but I think I'm technically the grandma now, or maybe great grandma. Well, that's good. Nothing wrong with being a grandma.

Gina Kavesh: 9:49

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 9:51

So what are your earliest memories of the bicycle?

Gina Kavesh: 9:55

I think I'm common to everybody who rides a bike in these days is as a kid that somewhere in elementary school I figured out how to get the training wheels off and it gave me the advantage to go ride my bike to school every so often. But I remember going up and down the streets I've lived on the east side Bellevue, newport Hills and during seafair you'd put the hydroplane behind your bike and you'd go racing down the street with your kid friends and see whose hydro would win. So it's the precursor to the boat.

Gina Kavesh: 10:22

know this, the boat races at mariner games or whatever so yeah, lots of, lots of just riding the neighborhood with no helmet, on bikes that probably weren't fit well, and you know, we all survived a few scrapes and bruises right at.

Tom Butler: 10:37

At some point you started competing and you got into bicycle racing. What sparked that transition?

Gina Kavesh: 10:50

Yeah, that was an odd one. I actually gave up riding I mean, I didn't ride much, you know into college and I moved to the Bay Area right after college and a friend invited me to go up to wine country and do a bike ride with her. I had the traditional build it yourself department store bike that somehow I ended up with and moved with and we did a 10 mile ride in the Bay Area up in Napa Valley when you could ride a bike and not get killed, and I was like this is great, I need a real bike, because she had a real racing bike and I had junk. So I went and bought a bike and then I started riding in the Bay Area. Then I moved back here and at that point I'd fallen in love with riding. So I started to ride and I found Cascade, found a group of people to ride with, started doing all the events and along the way met a gal my group of folks were doing the time I think it was the Daffodil Classic, I don't even know if it still happens and we found this gal who'd been dropped by the guy she was riding with.

Gina Kavesh: 11:40

She is still one of my closest friends and she is still my one of my closest friends and she was an ex rower and she decided she wanted to check out what this bike race thing was. She said you got to come and I'm like OK, and she found us a bike team and she excelled. I did not excel immediately, but I am one stubborn person, so once I got hooked I just kept going she, uh, she got away from road riding. Now she's, she's done all sorts of sports, but she's back into mountain biking and downhilling, which at age 60 plus 65 or 70 doing downhilling is pretty. Learning that sport at that age is impressive.

Tom Butler: 12:14

Yeah, that's impressive to me. I feel a bit intimidated by gravity on a on a mountain bike and sharp, sharp dirt turns and everything. So, yeah, I'm impressed by that yeah.

Gina Kavesh: 12:25

Yeah. So I got into it and I just kind of kept poking at it and eventually I got decent at it, or I should say I got pretty good at it and I've just loved it ever since. Um, obviously you know you have a trajectory when you race and you can kind of all in and then over time, as age catches up, you start to get a little bit more out. So I still compete, but not nearly as much as I used to, and mostly just focus on time trials, primarily because you can do age category for women. There aren't enough women in the sport per se. So you know, if I want to go do a bike race, I have to race against a lot of people who were me when I was starting. And you know, 20 or 30 years difference in age makes a big difference on the field.

Gina Kavesh: 13:06

Men, there's enough men so they can offer master categories In bike racing. Old people are masters. I'm like golf, where seniors are masters or seniors are old, right. So, yeah, so it's just. You know, it became. It became a passion, it became a lifestyle. I met my husband through bike riding and bike racing. It became a passion, it became a lifestyle. I met my husband through bike riding and bike racing and the people who took me under the wing, who helped me get good. All were giving back to the sport, and so that was innately inherent in like, if you're going to help me, I want to play it forward.

Tom Butler: 13:39

I love it.

Gina Kavesh: 13:40

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 13:40

And so you found a team. And it seems like that's a pretty instrumental step, yeah, and so so you found a team and it seems like that's a pretty instrumental step.

Gina Kavesh: 13:47

Yeah, you know, whether you want to call it a team, a community, a group of people that is supportive, a group of people that help nurture you, that can pick you up when you don't have a great day, show you the tricks, because there's no manual, right? I mean there is a quote, unquote, a rule book, but that doesn't tell you how to ride a bike and doesn't tell you some of the etiquette. And so, yeah, finding a group of people and my first group was a cascade group who taught me some of those and I mean, I know you've been doing this a bit the name Jerry Baker may have popped up Jerry Baker, the velodrome. Yeah, jerry Baker's brother, tom, the Baker brothers were one of the first writers in the area back in the sixties and seventies, um, and Tom taught me how to paceline, how to understand what bike racing was, and those were the people I started riding with in a cascade thing. And then, you know, you just progress.

Tom Butler: 14:39

How would you describe like the the time when you started racing, as far as embracing women in competitive endeavors, athletic endeavors?

Gina Kavesh: 14:53

Well, I started racing in 93, 94, 92, 93. Cycling's always been inclusive of women. You weren't ever felt like second class but there just weren't enough women out there. Of women, you weren't ever felt like second class but there just weren't enough women out there. And so people who are putting on events, you know if you're going to only have 15 women show up, there's one race, right. So it was hard because there wasn't enough. There wasn't enough diversity in the skillset, so that when I started showing up I was racing against people who were racing at a national level.

Gina Kavesh: 15:22

So if you're a beginner and you're racing against that caliber rider, you don't do so well. You have to be really, really mentally okay with having your butt handed to you weekend after weekend Over the years. I mean, we had the Lance influx, like what Lance did to the landscape, and then we also had some people. The Seattle community started to grow. The bike racing thing really started to grow again because of the Lance effect and we at a certain time we had women's fields that actually sold out. Like a max women's field for a beginner was 50 women and we had to have like an event had two because there were 75 women racing and at my categories you'd suddenly have 50 or 60 women. So you know, went way up. Unfortunately it's kind of gone back down in the competitive world, in the non-competitive and I, or in just the cycling general, I think it's been 50, 50. I think the statistics show 50% of people who ride a bike are identified as female or however you want to define that. It's just a different model on on how you see that person and whether they feel ready or want to go do these other to do these structured events and how do they and do they have a community to do that? And so, like a bike team or a bike club, it's great, but you still want to find people that are supportive of you and if it's all guys, sometimes guys go to guys work differently than women do work I mean that's just the nature of it and so you know it's really creating that sense that people feel like they get there and that they are not going to be dropped, they're not going to be lost.

Gina Kavesh: 17:07

Women I think inherently and maybe this is my bias, just from my time working with women on the bikes, getting them involved there's a little bit more. I don't think it's fear, but it's more. I want to know what I'm doing before I do it right, versus I'm just going to jump in and go for it. Now I did the, I just jumped in and went for it. But there's a lot of women who are like, ah well, you know, if I'm going to go do it, what happens if I have a flat? What happens if I have a mechanical? Am I going to be safe? I don't know where I'm going, how you know all these things. So it's like I want a little bit more structure before I get out there. And if I'm going to go with people to something, I want to know they're going to ride with me, but I don't want to hold them up. I don't want to be so slow that they're all frustrated.

Tom Butler: 18:20

So you're constantly juggling that. Now, when you're competing, it's something that takes discipline, no matter what you're competing in, and I'm wondering if you know how you look back and think about that. Did that dedication to cycling competition, did that influence other areas of your life?

Gina Kavesh: 18:39

Oh, for sure, For sure I look at. Cycling has kind of helped me evolve as a person as well as a manager, and it also was a good outlet for competitiveness in a positive way. I always say you always want to deal with me after I've had a bike ride than on a day where I'm supposed to, or like, if I haven't had a couple bike rides I'm not as good of a manager Gotcha. A little fatigue's a little good.

Tom Butler: 19:03

Get some of that energy out, yeah.

Gina Kavesh: 19:07

But it made me appreciate that. You know, I think competitive sport or sport in general just brings something to everybody's life. I'm a huge advocate, I don't care what the sport is. I think having sport, you learn teamwork, you learn your own boundaries, you learn, you push through certain things that you never thought you would, but because your team's relying on you, you may. Um, you learn how to deal with failure. You learn how to deal with success. You learn how to deal with the unanticipated. I mean, I just think it's such a important thing and I didn't do a lot of sports as a child.

Gina Kavesh: 19:47

Um, I didn't really like. Cycling is really the only sport I've ever done with any ability and any competition per se, and finding that in my mid twenties, late twenties, was like this whole new thing. And then when you're in, like I said, if you're involved with with a team or a club or a nonprofit like cascade, we're not all or a club or a nonprofit like Cascade, we're not all. None of us are paid. So how do you, how can you, how can you help mold something or move something when your only leverage is? I think this will work. Let's try it and respect each other when it doesn't work.

Gina Kavesh: 20:24

When you were growing up do you think it was looked at differently as far as being a girl and competing? Oh for sure, for sure. I mean, I was in high school. I was in elementary, middle school, like when Title IX passed, what was that? 70-something? So I was in school, high school, we had girls sports, but you didn't get scholarships, and so I would say that I'm kind of on the beginning of the edge of what now is so common for girls or women, like women when they are in high school, or girls are in high school or whatever. Competition and sport that's part of who they are Like. For me to find this gal who got me into bike racing, she had been in sports her entire life. She was, she was, she's five, seven years older than I am, and that was unusual, right, and if you just go back to my, like my mom's generation, sport wasn't part of the females vocabulary, I mean for numerous reasons.

Gina Kavesh: 21:22

I mean, my mom and dad still were my mom's past. My dad still gets mad at me. He's like you only have so many heartbeats and you waste them on the bike. But I mean, you know, and the other thing I say is that I'm I'm a little ahead of the curve, is so? I've been doing this endurance sport for 35 years at varying levels. A couple of years ago I had the great pleasure of finding out being diagnosed with AFib Very common in endurance sports in men, very, very common. Because for men who have been competing for 30 plus years, left atrium explodes, we get less elastic and the heart's like I can't control this anymore. I go into the cardiologist. They're like, yeah, we're starting to see some women, but it's still a small percent. I'm like it's coming.

Tom Butler: 22:09

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Gina Kavesh: 22:10

Yeah, so you know, um, you know all got fixed and whatever, and it's amazing what surgery can do. But it was just interesting, for when, talking to the cardiologist, they're like, yeah, you have the classic left atrium that has been expanded over years from all your exercise. You're doing all the right things. It's just your, your nodes, your sinus nodes can't keep up with it because you're less elastic. They're like we see this pretty common in men. I mean you read about it and comes air quotes. I mean it's not everybody's getting it, and you know he's like we're just starting to see some women. He goes. But you know you've been doing it so long, it's not surprising and we expect you know again, there are women now racing, there are people racing or people who ride a bike that I knew when they were 12 and they're now in their twenties and thirties. So you know the percentage says eventually women and men will probably have some equal equalness in some of these other things that happen when you're doing an endurance sport for forever.

Tom Butler: 23:02

Right. Have you by any chance watched the documentary uphill climb? It's talking about the first recognized tour de France for women.

Gina Kavesh: 23:13

I haven't seen that one. I saw one, a documentary about sharing the road. That was a few years ago.

Tom Butler: 23:18

Okay, I just find it a fascinating story, you know, like, how different it was for these women who basically had to make their way, you know, rather than having these really organized cycling teams, and it's just a, I think it's just a great look at a group of people that want to do something and are going to make it happen. And it was interesting because then, after that first one, there might've been two of them, I can't remember, but yeah, there were like a handful, and then it stopped for a lot of years. Yeah, yeah.

Gina Kavesh: 23:50

I mean, you know women's sports, women can't do the same distance, women can't do this, women can't do that, and you know. And again there are differences. I have to say the Tour de France is cray-cray for what they have the men do, but women's sports, across all sports, the competition may look different but it's still really good competition. I mean, I've loved WNBA and women's basketball for a long time, more than men, because it's not, it has to be a team sport. Yeah, you don't have the showboating.

Tom Butler: 24:19

Yeah Well, shout out to the storm.

Gina Kavesh: 24:21

Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. Um, and you know women's bike racing because they're usually shorter races, can be really exciting because there's more tactics and they're going to race from the gun. I mean, if you watch a tour de france stage, you're like I'll come into the final hour because it's just a joke. Most of the rest of I shouldn't say a joke, but nothing interesting is happening. And then when they shorten some of those you know in the tour de france men's, they shorten some of those you know on the Tour de France men's, they have some of those shorter stages. Now that's exciting racing and for the American population, sport needs to be exciting. Watching people pedal along in a big pack with nothing happening for hours is boring. Seeing attacks or seeing something dynamic happen, it's exciting.

Tom Butler: 25:04

Well, you bring up exciting and I I'd be interested if you have some thoughts on something that I found to be incredibly exciting and that was the women's Olympic road race. I'm wondering if you could break that down a little bit. Kristen Faulkner winning that I mean, that's just like a classic for all times as far as I'm concerned. Can you break that down a little bit?

Gina Kavesh: 25:31

Well, I mean, I mean the race itself had been good and I have to admit that I was kind of tuning in, tuning out, but that final 10 kilometers was amazing. Or 15 kilometers, you know, it's a pretty. I should say it's a. It's a classic tactic, but you have to be really strong and and the thing about bike racing, particularly the way that Kristen won you have to be willing to lose, because when she made that counterattack I mean when they were chasing I'm like, damn, if they catch, who's going to go? Like, does somebody have the legs to throw it to the wind and go for it? And if they do, do they have the power to hold Right?

Gina Kavesh: 26:05

yeah bless her. I mean, that was textbook. Like you kept, like you've been chasing, you catch that group and you go and you hope the person that's been in the front doesn't have the legs and the person you've been with doesn't have the legs, and then they all the three of them looked at each other like you, you, you, you, I mean, and voila, she's off I mean there's some elements there where, like she has to go for it, right, I mean she has to say she has to make that decision, and then there's no going back once she decides to make that decision.

Tom Butler: 26:39

And then there, it seems like, you know, there's this element where the people that are with her have a moment of questioning whether or not they're going to follow her. And then you know and kind of okay, is this it or isn't it it? You know, do we not need to chase her down, or whatever that?

Gina Kavesh: 26:59

gets exploited. Yeah, I mean so again for Kristen to make that move. Like I said, she may, and I don't know whether she thought about. You know again, sometimes when you're doing that, having done a race, where that's like the tactic, having done that myself, it's like you know that you could not win Right, like you're going to go for it, you're throwing caution to the wind.

Tom Butler: 27:21

Right.

Gina Kavesh: 27:22

Lay it out there, and if you get caught, that was your bullet, as they say.

Tom Butler: 27:27

Yeah, yes.

Gina Kavesh: 27:28

Right. Conversely, when you have a small group, that someone does that, when you're at the end of a race like that, you're tired and you're like someone else, could you close that and I'll sit on your wheel and then I'll do you. So you just, and it only takes a second. I mean, you saw how fast, yes, she took off they all. Just what seconds? 25 seconds, yeah, and then they couldn't get themselves organized and that's all she needed as well. She's strong. I mean, she was on fire right.

Tom Butler: 27:59

It was interesting for me because, you know, I'd seen chloe digert crash in the time trial, you know, and I was like, oh, you know, that just hurt. And then when she crashed again in the road race, it's just like a gut punch, you know, it's like, oh, you know. And then to watch the race in that way, you know, I think all that kind of disappointment, just like, um, just watching that happen and you're just like go, go, go, go, go, go, you know, and, uh, you know, and beat some fantastic people and it's just, it's an awesome story.

Gina Kavesh: 28:37

You know and that's the other thing about bike racing I mean you have your favorites. I mean you know we can think of the names in the men's sport and even in the women's sport that you have favorites, but on any given day it can be any given person's go Right.

Tom Butler: 28:50

And that's I mean.

Gina Kavesh: 28:51

So you asked me about bike racing and stuff. I said I'm decent, I I had some great wins and a lot of times I was. I never was lining up to win. I was there to do what I needed to do to try to get someone else to win. But on the right day, and when you do a bike race, even though you go in with strategy, you go in with team tactics Once you start rolling, all bets are off because everybody comes in with their own thing. And then you have some wild card and on any given day somebody can pull it off and someone's willing to blow for it, right.

Tom Butler: 29:26

Right.

Gina Kavesh: 29:27

You know, that's when I go back and say what's so amazing about sport is things that you don't think you have in your body, that you pull out. I mean, I can think of some events where I went for it and I didn't expect it to stick and I may still not have won, but but I still ended in the top three because the two people who caught me were able to drop me at the final point. But I'm like I've just been on my own for 50 miles, right, I didn't expect that to happen.

Tom Butler: 29:52

Well, I'm looking forward to seeing more in in that realm and you, I think, do some some coaching, is that right?

Gina Kavesh: 30:03

I've done informal coaching. I am not. I am not a formal coach. I have done. I would say my claim to fame is I've done a lot of clinics focused on women. Myself and three other gals from up here for five years went down to the Bay Area not the Bay Area to Redlands, california, and did a women's only clinic with some gals down there. And then I've done some clinics around town. I love helping someone learn how to ride a bike.

Tom Butler: 30:30

Tell me more about that.

Gina Kavesh: 30:38

What's rewarding about that for you? Again, it's more like passing along knowledge and helping someone with the little thing that just makes it a better experience, because there's just so much to bike riding that there's just no way to understand. I mean, you know, someone buys a bike. They may know how to shift. They may not understand how gears work. I mean, you know, someone buys a bike that they may know how to shift. They may not understand how gears work. They may.

Gina Kavesh: 30:53

You know, it took me a while before before someone explained gear inches. I was like gear inches, what the heck? And I'm like, oh, now I understand. That's how the gears feel, harder or stronger. There's an actual mathematical thing behind it. I mean, that's for my brain. But I needed someone to tell me, like, if I'm going to go uphill, don't be in that big ring. I also need someone to tell me don't wear underwear with my chamois, you know. And so it's those little things and it's so rewarding and, like I said it also, when you can give someone that skill, you teach someone to fish right.

Gina Kavesh: 31:27

When we did these clinics in California, we always spent a little bit of time on like, how to change a flat tire and you know Cascade does these classes that are amazing, because that's something that people are. They're like well, what happens if I flat? And I'm like well, you learn how to change a flat tire and it's easier to do it while you're on the side of the standing here when you don't need to, then when you have to and you know, women like I said, women particularly, I mean I talked to women they're like oh, I can't go right, I'd like to ride more, but my husband's working or you know, our hours don't line up and we can only ride together. And I'm like why is that? Well, what would I do if I flat it? I'm like you could learn to fix it right well, how do I take my wheel off?

Gina Kavesh: 32:05

I'm like, well, let's start that. Let's start with how to take your rear wheel on and off. People seem to do the front wheel Okay, the rear wheel scares them.

Tom Butler: 32:17

Yeah, I get that.

Gina Kavesh: 32:18

Yeah, so it's just rewarding because you see them.

Gina Kavesh: 32:21

you see folks blossom when you've done that, or you see them downstream, or you know, if we had a clinic, we saw where they started to where they ended. I mean, these clinics we would do like the beginner group literally was how to clip in and how to clip out and not fall over. By the end of two days they were doing that and they were doing a little baseline and they actually got on the road. The advanced writers were doing fancier stuff and then you know, just over time it's just like, if you can give that in a way that isn't threatening, I just find it rewarding because people did that for me.

Tom Butler: 32:56

I'm thinking that you must have last or whatever. There's just that element of completion of that, I think, has such a big impact on us, you know, on our brains, you know like I can do something and to just to have that kind of moment where that sinks in that I just finished that race, that that's got to be really fun to see.

Gina Kavesh: 33:30

I agree. And I think the other thing you know and this goes back to what you've learned and how it affects your life I think every time you finish an event or a sporting competition again regardless of where you place is what did you learn, Right? I mean for when I was racing regularly, when we'd finish my first, my first questions to myself was like what did I learn? Because I learned something in every race. And then when we were talking on our drive home, I'd ask you know, like what did you learn today? And sometimes it was mundane, like I do not like that flavor of blocks or whatever, whatever, but inevitably you'd be like oh, I, you know, I want, you know I learned never underestimate the book. Like the book and the cover. You can have somebody. You're like oh, that person can fly up a hill Cause they're so little and that person's bigger and they're not going to fly up a hill and then have my butt crushed by that bigger person going up the hill. You know, I'm like don't, don't assume.

Tom Butler: 34:26

And I'm like don't assume, I want to turn to your leadership role at Cascade Bicycle Club. Okay, you're co-president of the board, and how would you say that an organization like Cascade is vital for the cycling community here in the Pacific Northwest? What makes it vital, I guess?

Gina Kavesh: 34:49

Wow community here in the Pacific Northwest. What makes it vital? I guess Wow. What makes it vital is it's been here for as long as it's been. It has been instrumental in making Seattle one of the best places in the country to ride your bike. It is recognized across the country as a groundbreaking organization and, knowing some of of the history and it started as all volunteers and that the free group rides and, like I said, I started with the free group rides.

Gina Kavesh: 35:17

But there's so much work the cascade does for the infrastructure and the safety and bringing better cycling, cycling, rolling pedestrian infrastructure to us that we just don't see that is just is so critical because there are many places that don't have that sort of emphasis and they struggle. I've been in Colorado and there's places Colorado Springs, olympic headquarters, suck place to ride a road bike, terrifying One of the most amount of deaths and they don't have an organization like that. Somebody I know from time involved at the national level of cycling is in Park City, utah, and they're trying to get something together. But you know it's really hard to get it off the ground and Cascade, when it got created, was a unique time in Seattle. Created was a unique time in Seattle and the fact that it still exists and has just gotten stronger and stronger and it's part of who we are cannot be understated. How critical that is.

Gina Kavesh: 36:17

And anybody who rides a bike in Seattle I don't care how or why or where you're riding a bike. As I was saying the other day in a discussion, I'm like we talk about bike community and all of us have a subset of community. Like I'm one of those people in Lycra and you may think that I'm a snob and then I go by someone who's on an e-bike running their errands and they're in a community that they may look at me like I'm not part of their community. But we're all on bike, we all need that infrastructure and without Cascade we don't have it.

Gina Kavesh: 36:50

To me it's just so critical and we're so fortunate to have it. To me it's just so critical and we're so fortunate to have it. I mean, I know you're a newer bike rider, ish. But when I started riding back in Seattle, like on the south end of the lake, you go through the slough right and then you kind of go down and around and up to the bridge. You used to get to Bellevue Way and have to cross four lanes of traffic Now granted in the 90s, bellevue Way was a little bit, a little less chaotic, but it was literally like you're looking, you're looking, you're looking and go. So it's that sort of thing that we don't, that people don't recognize how important, how lucky we are we have that.

Tom Butler: 37:25

You know a lot of people listening to this won't have a Cascade near them. You know a smaller club. I'm wondering if Cascade Bicycle Club kind of sees a role for helping other clubs kind of learn how to develop across the nation. Other clubs can learn how to develop across the nation. Is that something that you guys think about, kind of you know, having the resources that you have and being around as long as you have, are you kind of thinking about that role?

Gina Kavesh: 37:59

Not necessarily at a national level, because there's League of American Cyclists, so that's more of a national Cascade right now is just focused on how do we help support not just the Puget Sound area, but how we do this across the state. One of the things that we hear in highways, if you would, that connect communities so people can do things in another way other than getting in their car, and that's really where the work has been is how do we support what's happening in Spokane, in Yakima, in Wenatchee, in other smaller communities that have the need but they don't have the resources? And then you know, at a national level we certainly work with League of American Cyclists.

Tom Butler: 38:55

Well, I think that you know, one of the things you guys model very well, no matter what size of club you're in, is the element of collaboration, and I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about the value that makes collaboration important.

Gina Kavesh: 39:13

Well, I think it goes again. It goes back to like you know, okay, cascade is the big club in the area or is the big cycling organization, cascade Washington Bikes is the big organization in the area. But just because we have more resources or a bigger organization doesn't say we know what your community needs. So you'd be foolish to go in with a great big, you know hammer and say this is the way it's going to be. It's like we need to understand your community and I would say Cascade's gotten better with that collaboration over the last five, six years than previous. I'd say.

Gina Kavesh: 39:50

In some previous times Cascade would come in with a great big stick and try to dictate. Obviously that doesn't always work very well and doesn't help the community and I would give a lot of credit. Now, where we're at is Lee. Lee Lambert's doing a terrific job and he is about collaboration and he sees, he understands that and the staff understands that we can do so much but we really need to let people on the ground help them do what they know is best for their community. I mean, that's a lot of even you know government and a lot of things is like let's give the local community the resources so they can bring in what needs to happen.

Tom Butler: 40:33

Yeah, and I've seen that in action, you know, like with Second Cycle in Tacoma, you know, and collaborating with them, and I think that's wonderful. And again, I think it's one of those things that if you're a smaller club, then you know collaborating gives you access to more resources and people working together can be more effective than you know people working separately.

Gina Kavesh: 41:00

Oh, for sure, For sure, and again it's a big state.

Tom Butler: 41:02

Yeah, and a pretty diverse state.

Gina Kavesh: 41:05

Yes.

Tom Butler: 41:06

And maybe every state has that, but you know it's a pretty diverse state. Now, cascade bicycle club is introducing the rebel revolution ride in june and I'd like you to talk about that. What was the driving force behind this event?

Gina Kavesh: 41:23

well, lee and the team at cascade have been talking about it for a little bit. There is a there was a gap created in events. Um, back in the, the wave ride was an all women's ride. Um, that the last year was 2018 was really successful. Um, it was from. It was a non-profit called the wave that was putting on this event and it was a women's only ride and I think the peak attendance was 1,200 women and that ended in, like I said, 2018, 2019.

Gina Kavesh: 41:54

And Lee and the team at Cascade have been looking and saying we feel like there's a gap in the market. And, again, as we've had an earlier conversation, what's it take to get women to events? And in this case, this event is women and non-binary. Like, how do you make a welcoming space for people who want to do some events but they're intimidated and I may be putting people, you know, words in mouths. There's some people just don't even know these things exist, but a woman only thing was something that's been on their on their on mind, and so this was the year that was like let's do it, let's just, you know, let's.

Gina Kavesh: 42:34

Our expectations are not a huge number. It's not going to be 1200 women. Be amazing, but it's not gonna be 1200 women, um, and let's start small. So it's. You know two, two uh routes One is 26 miles, 27 miles around Lake Sammamish, the other is like 13 miles, and let's start to build that community again and bring that element in, because when you get someone who does an event, that's the beginning of an event career, hopefully that they start doing other events. But they also feel better about a bike.

Tom Butler: 43:09

You know, I think there's a weird time right now, for me at least. I'm sorry if you don't agree with this position anybody out there but you know it is a time where there's like pressure to not be focused on diversity, not to be focused on equity or inclusion, which is really weird to me. But you know, was that on your mind as you were talking about doing this ride at all? Like this is Introducing something that's focused on including People At a time where inclusion Is like a bad word.

Gina Kavesh: 43:46

Well, the interesting thing is you can Is this conversation was happening prior to some of the if you would, the DEI initiatives being thrown out the window. Cascade is an inclusive organization and they look at their numbers at events, and the event that comes closest to a 50-50 ratio with enough women is the wine ride, which says something we like to drink, but most of their rides are 20 to 25% female at best, and so one of the questions is like who are we missing and how do we market to them and how do we get people out there? I mean, there's some free rides that have great women participation, but they don't want to do an organized ride and, again, not everyone's going to do an organized ride. And so the discussion was more like how do we open up space to try to get people into the ecosystem of doing events and the ecosystem of Cascade? Right, so Cascade has free rides, they have paid events, and then you just have the ecosystem of Cascade, right, so Cascade has free rides, they have paid events, and then you just have the ecosystem of Cascade and Washington Bikes, which is supporting cycling as a community thing, and events and free rides are kind of you know, that's the feeder into the community of what Cascade is, and so if we don't have women showing up, we're missing people.

Gina Kavesh: 45:10

And so this was is really intended on. Like, how do we, how do we create something that we can invite those people in that's going to feel safer or more comfortable. Now to your point, and I'm going to lean right into it because I I was involved with the way ride. There is we will get pushback. Or some people are going to say, well, wait a second, you're calling for inclusion but you're excluding men, right? I mean, that's. That's kind of the weird thing. Like you have a woman only event, whatever it is, and someone, you get someone pushing back saying, well, that's exclusionary. It's like, okay, fair, it it? What we are saying is we are asking men not are not invited to ride the ride, but we want men involved in the ride to be an ally to be a volunteer to be involved.

Gina Kavesh: 45:58

Now, way back at the beginning of this, we talked about how I got, and so one of my first events I ever did was in the Bay area Um, right after I got my new bike, after my wine ride what did you get, by the way? What did I buy? I bought a Bridgestone touring bike.

Gina Kavesh: 46:14

Okay, I had that for four years I loved that bike. So the first event I met somebody who rode and she got me to do my first metric century called the Cinderella Classic, which is in the Bay Area. It's still going on, women only, okay, and all supported by men and it was a great. I mean, that was my first paid experience Like this is great. And so and there are some other women only events have been going on. There's little red that happens in Utah and you know it's like let's just do it. And again, men are certainly invited.

Tom Butler: 46:51

We just, at this particular event, we ask you not to ride, we ask you to help, and so and what a fantastic way to show support, to show up and help to show up and serve and be there. I think that's great. It is an interesting thing. I find it, you know thing. I find it you know as a man, to say, wow, this is unfair, that I can't participate in this ride. It seems silly to me, but I know that you know. It feels to me like no one would seriously say that. But I think that you know, go ahead.

Gina Kavesh: 47:34

Well, I'm going to say so, people will say it. I think one of them the best example I have. When we were doing the wave ride and my second year as the executive director, I got an email from some lady, from a lady who had done the ride, and we had ambassadors out on the ride to help with mechanical stuff. Those were men. So there were a half dozen guys out there helping with mechanical stuff and two people I had recruited great guys that I ride with were out there and this lady wrote me a note. She goes I don't know where you found this guy and this guy. What an antithesis of every guy I've ever ridden with. They were not assholes, they were great. They helped me with my flat, they got me on the road. Then they came and found me again to make sure I was okay. I really appreciate it. It makes a whole new perspective of what I think of men on the road and I was like wow.

Tom Butler: 48:26

Yeah, that is a wow. I mean like she's like oh, people like this exist.

Gina Kavesh: 48:32

So you don't know what her experience was before? Yeah, but exist. So you don't know what her experience was before? Yeah, um, but yeah. So I was like, okay, that's you know. So, unfortunately, yeah, there's some. I mean, you know, as I I make the joke regularly because you know, you're a bike rider and someone's like oh, you bike riders are always in the way and you're being you're being an asshole on a bike. I'm like you can be an asshole on a bike or you can be an asshole in a car, you're just an asshole.

Tom Butler: 48:55

Yeah, yeah, well, said yeah. So you know, I think that for me, as a man, there's things that I don't know. You know, sometimes, that I'm doing. You know maybe the way that I take up space or the way that I look at someone who's struggling, or whatever. You know, maybe the way that I take up space or the way that I look at someone who's struggling, or whatever. You know, I think there there's just some things that maybe I'm just not aware of, that I need to be more aware of.

Gina Kavesh: 49:27

I think all of us have that blind spot, you know, and cycling is a cycling is a hard sport and everybody learns it and gains it a different space and everybody gets something different out of it. And when you're starting in the sport, you don't know what you don't know and you just are trying to do whatever you can, to hang on or to ride and have a good time. And you know, I can think of it. It happens regularly. I'll be riding, doing intervals or something, and someone jumps on my wheel typically a guy and then has to be there while I'm doing my interval and then, as I'm sitting up, they go blowing by and they do the head shake and you know, like, is she chasing me? Is she chasing me? I'm like, I just finished an interval, you douche. I'm now resting and I'm going to turn around and go do another one.

Gina Kavesh: 50:16

But you're a douchebag, you know, and I've had it with both genders, or all genders. Where you're. You know, and I know I've done it too Like you're writing, I'm like, oh God, I got to pass this person. Oh, this is going to turn into the. I do not want to do this, I don't want to go back and forth, back and forth, but they're riding a little slower than I want to go and I'm going to pass them and I'm like this is not a competition, I'm just going my speed.

Gina Kavesh: 50:43

And if you're going to then surge around me, great, but then please keep going that speed, because I don't want to do this game.

Tom Butler: 50:51

So what I would say as a guy is that if, if a woman, you know, if you're an event or you ride with a woman or you're part of a club ride or whatever, and a woman says, hey, you know, when you do this, it makes me feel uncomfortable, like honor, that you know, don't get defensive about it. It might be a blind spot that you have and just honor it and sit with it and say is something I can be doing, you know, just respect that.

Gina Kavesh: 51:19

you know that feedback and also respect that there is an innate built difference in our strength, right, I mean really strong women are going to hang with, really with strong men, but they're still they're not going to be hanging with tade most likely yeah, yeah and if someone and and again, I'd say this for all genders like if you're riding with people and someone is struggling, you can, either you can look and say are they in the right gear? I mean, sometimes you can look down, you're like you know, can I give?

Gina Kavesh: 51:50

you a hint that combination's gonna suck on this hill. Go Go smaller. All of us have gears. Use them. They're there for a reason. You don't need to stay in one. It's one of my favorite things. I'm like you have 11 of them. Use them.

Tom Butler: 52:05

Although I would say it as a guy. I think it takes a relationship first with women to really start explaining everything. I think mansplaining is like a real deal.

Gina Kavesh: 52:18

It can be. It can be.

Tom Butler: 52:20

When you say you know. Can I give you a suggestion? You might want to build a relationship with someone first before deciding that you need to change everything about what they're doing no-transcript down.

Gina Kavesh: 52:56

I don't want to hold you up. I don't want to hold you up. It's like you know. The thing is, if I would hope, if you, if you're riding with somebody again, whomever, and they're a little bit slower, you're going to take your pace down because you don't need to, you don't need to put them in the in the floor, I mean, maybe in a bike race, but just doing a ride. No, and that's what I tell people. Like, if I invite someone out to go for a bike ride and someone's like, oh, I'm too slow, I'm going to slow you down, I'm like if I say let's go for a bike ride.

Gina Kavesh: 53:26

I want to ride with you. Nothing else matters. If I have a workout, I'm not inviting you. I'm like you don't want to come with me.

Tom Butler: 53:35

Well, that's, you know, I'm sensitive to that because I'm slow and you know. So people do invite me to go for rides and I'm like, okay, you know, are you sure you want to go that slow on your ride? And yeah, so it is a dynamic. But I think what you said there is if someone is saying you know, hey, you want to ride together. You know, it's mostly just about hanging out together and the cycling is just a way to do that.

Gina Kavesh: 54:03

It's a way to catch up, it's a way to talk. I mean it's a very social sport. When you're doing it in a group, you know we have to meet people where they are.

Tom Butler: 54:17

Obviously, there'll be a section of the Cascade website that talks about the rebel ride. Are there some key things that you would like people to know who are who are maybe considering doing it?

Gina Kavesh: 54:23

come do it, come experience it again. It's the beginning. It's the beginning it will become. You know, this year it's, like I said, just two routes, um, ultimately, I'm sure we're, you know, we'll build upon it and we'll get to a point similar to where the wave was, with like four routes, where there'll be longer routes for people who are a little bit ready for that. But come out and support the community. Come out and support the other female riders, non-binary riders. The short route is great for somebody, for people who are just really starting their cycling journey or are really unsure about what this event thing is. Come out, give it a try. You know the experience alone and being around that many people supportive, you're going to find a new love for the bike. So yeah, I mean just register and show up I love it it should be good weather in june.

Gina Kavesh: 55:12

it should be good weather, yeah.

Tom Butler: 55:13

Yeah, we've got a good chance.

Gina Kavesh: 55:16

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 55:19

I want to talk a little bit about. You're on the board of directors, you know, and there's an executive team and Lee is leads the executive team. What are the differences that you look at as a board when you're looking at the future of Cascade Bicycle Club versus what the executive leadership does?

Gina Kavesh: 55:56

and fiduciary duty. I mean those are all technical terms. Our role is to be advisors and to be a sounding board and to support Lee and team and what they're seeing. They're going to be the tactical, they're the tactical players. But decisions or things that are broader on, like how are we going to deal with, like how do we best manage our money? Right, lee brings it to us and he lays out his path on what he's looking at. He and his team lay it out and then we'll ask questions and we have a very diverse skill set.

Gina Kavesh: 56:28

So somebody who has a lot of financial background may say well, you know, what about X, y or Z? Or we explored Y. If there's something that's, what about X, y or Z? Or we explored Y? If there's something that's maybe a change to a policy, that's something we dig into as well.

Gina Kavesh: 56:43

Like we're going to make a policy change and since we have a broad base of perspective on the board, including ride leaders, people who've done events, people who have great financial or marketing or interesting backgrounds, we can kind of look at it and say, okay, what's the membership going to think about this, how this is going to be responding to, or where are the blind spots that maybe the organization isn't seeing. That's really our role is saying you know, let's just have a different, a broader view, because when you're in the day in and day out nuts and bolts of bike advocacy and events and getting kids on bikes and these classes and all this other stuff, you may not see that blind spot. I mean going back to the ride, when Lee brought it up I was like, hey, lee, you know I love it. Obviously I was involved with it. I said but you know the whole thing about men. I said just be prepared, there's gonna be a little bit of pushback.

Gina Kavesh: 57:37

He's like, really I'm like yeah, you know, so it's that sort of thing. So it's really more, it's a little higher level.

Tom Butler: 57:50

I'm wondering, from that seed of kind of a higher level picture, how optimistic are you for cycling in general, the future of cycling, the future of safe cycling paths and things like that? What are your thoughts about the future as you, you know? Again, look at it from a broader vision.

Gina Kavesh: 58:15

I'm optimistic. The future, as you, you know. Again, look at it from a broader vision. I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic, particularly in Washington state, that we will see more infrastructure and we will see better connections. It's a great way to move around, but it also brings the safer we can make it or the way we can make these connections. It also helps bring up some of the pieces that we have where we've screwed up in equity. Right, I mean, bringing safer routes for the person who has to ride a bike to get to work is critical. We need to do that.

Gina Kavesh: 58:46

Making it safer for people to get on and off transit with a bike because a bike is a low cost, it can be, I should say, way to travel, and so we need to look at how do we improve the inner, the guts? How do we make it safer? How do we make it so it's more approachable Seattle? There's going to be things we can't get rid of. We can't get rid of hills.

Gina Kavesh: 59:11

I think the e-bike has been as much as. I'm not going to ride an e-bike anytime soon, although I may get old enough I will. I think an e-bike is an amazing thing, particularly for urban living, like hopping on a bike running the grocery store. Boom, boom, boom, terrific. E-bikes are that final mile e-bikes for getting to work, like I think it's a game changer, and that's why I get really optimistic, because people are seeing it's a game changer and people are going to them and using them for sport, for commute, for work, for all these purposes. And the more people who ride bikes, the more we're going to see infrastructure following, because there are people out there that don't want it and so, yeah, so I'm hopeful.

Gina Kavesh: 59:55

It's just it's hard though, right, I mean, people are like roads are a mess.

Gina Kavesh: 59:59

Roads need work, we have bridges that are failing, I mean, and there's only so much money it's hard to navigate.

Gina Kavesh: 1:00:06

But you know, at the same time, all these, all this programming we're doing in schools and all these bikes that are doing this great work through the let's Move program from the state, we're putting a lot of people on bikes.

Gina Kavesh: 1:00:18

And the more people on bikes I would say I'd much rather have, I want as many people to ride a bike and experience the bike from the road or from the dirt, like I do, and I recognize that I mean I'm a driver, because the moment you start to ride a bike, you become a better driver, being more aware of the bike, and you're probably a little bit more in tune with why some of this infrastructure work that we want to see happen, why some of the South Seattle work needs to happen, why, you know, some of these connections from Burien and Rainier Valley need to come together and Rainier Valley need to come together so we all have a safe way to move around. Maybe take a car or two off the road and support the rising of people being able to get to where they need to do, to do their job, to do their grocery shopping or just to be. And for kids to move around I mean kids on bikes is a great thing.

Tom Butler: 1:01:12

A lot of times when I ask people because I ask almost everybody that comes on you know what are your first memories of the bike and you know kids being able to experience like the bike as a tool for freedom, you know, I, I think it's, I think that's super valuable.

Gina Kavesh: 1:01:28

It is. And you know when, again, when our age growing up, it once I got, once I was able to ride a bike, my parents would let me. I was in Newport Hills, I could ride to the grocery store. I'd put my kickstand down, I'd go to the grocery store, do my thing and ride home and I'd ride to my friend's house. It was how I moved in my my sphere, right In the five miles around my house, without my parents having to take me everywhere. Right now, there's a lot of places in this city, in our communities, in this state, where a parent's not going to let their kid ride even down the block because they're worried about it.

Tom Butler: 1:02:03

I mean and that's not just I mean that's like okay, we got to do better like Montreal or Paris and you know like what are the things that happened to create what seems like, in Paris, a pretty dramatic shift to active transportation.

Gina Kavesh: 1:02:25

I think it is worth exploring to understand what that cultural change was. I mean, you mentioned Paris. What's interesting is, last spring I went to New York for the New York Grand Fondo and the day before three people one person I met there and the two people that were working the event with me they took us for a ride through New York into Central Park. I felt perfectly safe riding my road bike until I got to Central Park, which was no car day and then was really chaotic, okay Okay. But riding through Manhattan, riding through Harlem, riding across the George Washington bridge, I was like this is almost better than Seattle because it was fully connected. It had separated bike lanes and cars. I mean, cars don't move very fast in Manhattan anyways, but you know it felt really comfortable air quotes, better than days where I'm riding Lake Washington Boulevard and even though bikes have the right of way, I got cars going by me and they're going fast, so you know. So I think it is worth exploring and understand.

Gina Kavesh: 1:03:32

Some of it is also just. Exploring and understand some of it is also just. I think some of our challenge here in Washington is we've never. We have some urban areas, but we have a lot of suburban areas and because of our sprawl we lose fact that the suburban and urban have to connect. And that's where you know, in a lot of these communities Paris, new York, toronto their urban areas are so dense that nobody wants to drive Right.

Tom Butler: 1:04:02

Right.

Gina Kavesh: 1:04:03

And we're not there yet, although I think we're getting there pretty close. I've been on I-5 lately and I don't want to drive it.

Tom Butler: 1:04:09

Yeah, that's right, there is, it is relative right. I mean it's like, yeah, this is slow. Yeah, it's like, yeah, this is slow.

Gina Kavesh: 1:04:15

Yeah, so it's a cultural shift and you know, and I'm hopeful we're going to get there.

Tom Butler: 1:04:22

And I'm hoping that Washington can be a unique example. You know we don't have, you know, like the massive you know, of a New York city. It's not, it's not not that size, but I, I, I'd love it to think that we can be an example to the world of embracing cycling you know, and embracing active transportation. You know which? For me, you know, the biggest thing is that we need to find more reasons to be active. Oh yeah, and so you know, providing an opportunity for people to do that.

Gina Kavesh: 1:04:58

Yeah, and I mean we have some really good guts to our infrastructure, our bike infrastructure. I mean, if we think about it, like I said, I live on the East side. I have two bridges I can get across to go to Seattle and at one point I had a project that was right in Pioneer Square. That was an amazing commute, like boop, straight across Dearborn. There it was, you know, for a while I was at the University of Washington and I would. The commute was pretty good. So we have a lot of good pieces but we just have so many disjointed pieces and, like I said, I know it's across the state. Obviously we're one of the bigger urban areas, but there's a lot of little urban areas that could probably use a little bit of work too.

Tom Butler: 1:05:43

So it's just you know. You just keep poking at it and keep trying to change it. What are some of your personal fitness and cycling goals that you have? Do you have any adventures planned? What's the future like for you?

Gina Kavesh: 1:05:53

Well, I have a few adventures. So I'm going to do the wall the cascade, walla walla tour, which is always a fun one. I think goes back to the wine thing I mentioned. Um, I am going to do the um cascades, also introducing the iron horse gravel ride this year. So I'm not a dirt rider, but I got my husband a gravel bike, so I and a friend is one of the sponsors, so I'm going to do it. I am actually going to miss the women's ride here because I'll be in Wisconsin doing one of the competitions I focus on every year. Yeah, so that's kind of those are my bike adventures. I just came back from California riding with some friends, the ones that I met through doing that clinic that I still go down every year, and we ride bikes for five or six days in the sun.

Tom Butler: 1:06:36

Nice.

Gina Kavesh: 1:06:37

Yeah, so you know, I know I'm always looking.

Tom Butler: 1:06:42

Gina, thank you so much. This was so fun and it's it's great to get the view that you have of cycling, kind of your personal experience of it, and then, as a board member, I just taking the time to share with us. Thank you so much.

Gina Kavesh: 1:06:58

Thank you for making the time. I've enjoyed it.

Tom Butler: 1:07:00

Good, good. Well, we'll talk to you later.

Gina Kavesh: 1:07:02

Take care.

Tom Butler: 1:07:03

Bye now. Throughout the interview I referred to the upcoming ride as the Revel Ride. However, it's actually called the Revel Revolution Ride. I regret getting that wrong because I think Revel Revolution is a much better representation of the energy that will be present during the event. I found it interesting that Gina didn't really see Cascade Bicycle Club as having a role nationally. She pointed to the American League of Bicyclists for that, and while I believe that the league can play a very valuable role nationally, I also think Cascade Bicycle Club can be a model of what local community engagement and local activism can look like. I would recommend that anybody who wants to inspire a local community of cyclists should go to cascadeorg, where you can scribe and follow what they are working on. I'm having a tough time already trying to figure out how to fit all the biking in that I want to do this summer. There are so many fun things to do. I hope you are finding all kinds of fun activities and also some things that will challenge you and remember, age is just a gear change.