Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 20, barging in on the Netherlands, and I'm your host, tom Butler. I'm looking forward to participating in a fundraising activity this spring. I want to thank Anita Elder for inviting me to join her for what's called the Great American Ride to benefit Rails to Trails. The ride is a virtual team event. As a team, you have from April 5th to June 6th to try to complete 3,700 miles of riding. This is to simulate a ride across the US on the Great American Rail Trail. Please consider joining us on Team Huffing and Puffing. The sign-up fee is $50 and supports the work of Rails to Trails to create an ever-expanding network of awesome paths. I'll put a link to the Huffing and Puffing team page in the show notes. I want to thank Sean and Jean for joining me this week on the Thursday Zoom call. I had a great time learning about Jean's cycling journey. Sean also joined me for what I'm calling the Zwift Thursday ride and I really appreciate his encouragement. As we did the 17-mile route, I would love to have you join me next Thursday at 3 pm. You can find my email in the show notes to get a Zoom link. To join the Zwift ride you need to be a member of the Zwift Cycling Over 60 Club. Whether you join the ride or not, I'm looking forward to meeting as many of you as possible on Zoom.

Tom Butler: 1:34

This week I did an FTP test on Zwift. I used the 20-minute standard test. If you aren't familiar with the format of the Zwift 20-minute FTP test, it gives a gradual warm-up followed by a hard 5-minute section to fire up the legs, then a slight easy section followed by a prompt to go all out for 20 minutes. I was really hurting for the whole 20 minutes, but I guess that means it was a good look at my ability. I decided to keep my heart rate around 160 beats per minute. I mostly accomplished that, but I did hit 166 beats per minute at some point. I ended up with 191 watts being sustained over the 20 minutes. I was pretty happy with that until I pulled up the workout on Strava and realized it was only the second best power output I've done for 20 minutes. I previously hit 194 watts. For that time when I did the 194 watts, I did hit a higher heart rate, so I guess I was pushing a little harder. I'm not sure that comparing the 191 watts ride and the 194 watts ride is comparing apples to apples. So for now I'm going with the 191 watt result, and that translates to an estimated FTP of 181. So that gives me something to compare future efforts with. But I had to wonder if that is true, is FTP a good measure for my strength and endurance, and does my age impact how meaningful FTP is as a realistic metric? Let's dig into that a little bit.

Tom Butler: 3:10

Ftp stands for functional threshold power. It is meant to be the highest average power you can sustain for approximately an hour. So my 20 minute output of 191 watts is believed to translate to me being able to hold 181 watts for an hour. That is one of the first things I'm curious about. I feel 100% confident that I couldn't have held 191 watts for an hour, but even 181 watts for an hour seems like it would be a lot. While I haven't tried to push it for a whole hour on Zwift, the most I have done from a power perspective is 153 watts over an hour. Again, that makes 181 watts sound like a lot, but at some point I'm going to get on and clip in and just really see what I can do.

Tom Butler: 3:58

Here's the physiological basis for FTP. As exercise intensity increases. There's a shift from primarily anaerobic metabolism to a greater reliance on anaerobic metabolism. Anaerobic meaning that you aren't getting enough oxygen to the muscles to use a source like fat for energy. Anaerobic literally means without oxygen. When your body is utilizing glucose in an anaerobic environment, lactate is produced as a byproduct.

Tom Butler: 4:27

Now, if you want to hear a discussion of lactate buildup, listen to the episode on September 5th 2023. It's called Maybe Not Zone Training. Ftp is seen as an estimate of the highest power output that a person can maintain in a steady state without excess lactate accumulation. It is meant to relate closely to lactate threshold, or the point at which you are accumulating lactate in the blood faster than it can be removed. You typically see a significant increase in respiration when you hit that lactate threshold. One of the criticisms of FTP is that it's just an estimate and not an actual measure of lactate buildup. However, to measure lactate in the blood would require a blood test and I'm not going to draw blood at home as I'm on the trainer Plus. Lactate in the blood is really an indirect measure. To actually measure lactate buildup in the muscles would take a muscle biopsy, obviously. That is precisely why FTP is used, even though it is only an approximation of lactate threshold.

Tom Butler: 5:34

I do feel comfortable with FTP in general as a fitness level evaluation tool, but more specifically, I would like to know two things. First, how is my fitness in relation to others my age? And secondly, is FTP a good way of tracking my fitness gains? You could argue that, comparing myself to others, my age isn't important. Who cares how I compare, as long as I'm fit right. However, I'm trying to assess whether or not I have a problem with the way I utilize energy. The only way that I can determine if I have a problem or not is by comparing my fitness gains with others. I'll come back to this, but first I want to talk about FTP being a way that I can accurately compare how I'm advancing in fitness from month to month.

Tom Butler: 6:21

I'm fairly confident that FTP can be used as a way of assessing how I'm improving, with some considerations. First, ftp can be impacted by a number of factors. These include environmental factors and also my mental and physical state. For example, if I get a bad night's sleep before a test, it could affect the results. If I don't fuel appropriately or if I don't have enough electrolytes, it could reduce the results If I don't fuel appropriately or if I don't have enough electrolytes, it could reduce my FTP. Therefore, I need to figure out how to do FTP testing with as much consistency as possible.

Tom Butler: 6:54

Here is my plan for getting reliable results. First, using the indoor trainer eliminates a lot of environmental factors. I don't think I'd be able to compare what power I was generating on the bike on the road, but using the same bike on the same trainer provides consistency. A second part of the plan is to pick a time in the early morning and stick with it. That way the heat won't be an issue at any time of the year, because I believe being overheated would reduce my FTP. So I want to be consistent with doing my FTP test at 6 30 am. The third part of the plan is take the same amount of carbohydrates the day before every test and then, along with that, eat the same breakfast at the same time. For me that means finishing breakfast at 6.15 to give 15 minutes before the start of the test. It's important to me because I think it does matter how much stored glycogen I have for the FTP test and again, finding a way to be consistent with that because obviously if I'm running out of fuel it's going to really impact the test results, while using the trainer as a component.

Tom Butler: 8:05

Using Zwift provides a fourth component of consistency in my mind, and that's because the test is conducted the same way each time. It's the same warm-up and the same resistant mechanism for the 20-minute segment. A fifth component is to get a good night's sleep. That just means getting to bed on time, but I think it also means getting a good night's sleep the night before as well. If I was going to participate in a serious sports event, I would be getting at least two good nights rest. So again for me to be serious about consistency with the FTP test, I should do the same. A sixth component is electrolyte intake test. I should do the same. A sixth component is electrolyte intake. Now I don't think I have my electrolyte replenishment strategy 100% worked out yet. However, I need to make sure my performance isn't limited by the lack of electrolytes. Once I have it dialed in, I need to be consistent with electrolytes for the test.

Tom Butler: 9:01

Before I started using Zwift, I depended upon Strava segment times to determine if I was getting stronger, but I think that FTP ends up to be a way more reliable comparison. It might not be a 100% accurate view of my fitness level, but I think it's pretty close. I think it can be a more useful way to assess what progress I make. As long as I do these six things I mentioned, it is interesting to me to see how I stack up to others. Ftp is impacted by age, so I want to compare myself to others, my age To be honest. I actually want to see that I have the FTP of a younger person. I feel like I'm in better shape than I was easily in my 40s and maybe even in my 30s, and I'd like FTP to kind of validate that.

Tom Butler: 9:46

I put my 20 minute watts value from the Zwift test into a calculator and it classified me as quote untrained, slash, non-racer. Those categories were not age specific and they're from a book by Dr Andrew Coggan titled Training and Racing with a Power Meter. Using the calculator at formbeatcom, my 181 estimated FTP or 2.0 watts per kilogram score puts me in what they call the novice category. So I'd have to say being an untrained novice doesn't sound fantastic. Being an untrained novice doesn't sound fantastic. Trumslabscom says that FTP tends to drop by 5% to 8% per decade with age. The one chart that I could find that looked at age didn't give a source for the information, but I think it also came from Andrew Coggan. The average FTP for men over 60 was listed at 1.5 to 2.5 watts per kilogram. So based on that, I'm average for my age. The 50 to 59 average FTP is listed as 2 to 3 watts per kilogram. I guess you could argue that I could be classified as average for someone 10 years younger than me, and that feels a little better. Based on this, I'm going to build up to a 2.5 watts per kilogram FTP. That seems like a really difficult goal at this point, but I will see what happens the next time I do the FTP test. Even if I've moved just a little bit closer to 2.5 watts per kilogram, I will be encouraged. The truth of the matter is that I continue to be surprised about how much I can increase my strength and endurance, even now, at 62 years old.

Tom Butler: 11:35

One of the issues that I'm most anxious to figure out is just how much my poor pancreatic function is interfering with my FTP. I noticed something interesting when I was riding with my daughter and we were climbing a hill. She started breathing really hard, and that means her body was trying to clear out lactate, but I wasn't breathing at all. However, my legs were absolutely on fire. It's like my muscles were screaming for fuel and they couldn't get any. I'm suspecting that this is because my body isn't producing enough insulin to effectively move glucose from my bloodstream to my muscle cells. Without that glucose, my muscles have to result to less efficient ways to generate energy, which creates that burning sensation because there's a buildup of other metabolic byproducts. My low respiration is kind of a support for this view. If I'm not producing energy as efficiently, my body doesn't need to take in as much oxygen and there's not as much lactate to try to eliminate.

Tom Butler: 12:40

I've wondered about this before, but I think it's time to dig in and figure it out. I've wondered about this before, but I think it's time to dig in and figure it out. And there are other indications that my performance is being hindered by low insulin release on long rides. If I can figure out a way to get more insulin in during hard workout sessions, it might be that doing an FTP test would be easier for me because I might be fueled better than I have been in a long time, and of course that can make a really significant difference in my FTP score. I'm really interested to hear if any of you have experienced low insulin levels when doing long rides. It just seems obvious that that's a huge factor.

Tom Butler: 13:21

I'm wondering if anyone listening has type 1 diabetes. I'd really like to know what you do to manage blood glucose, especially on long rides. Ultimately, I'm excited that I did my first FTP test and I'm looking forward to learning what I can learn and repeating the tests in the future. And, like I said, I'm really happy that I can still improve. I can still get stronger and I can still improve. I can still get stronger and I can still have more endurance. If you have listened to the podcast for a while, you will recognize the person who's joining me today. Thank you, jesse Ferguson, for being a part of this episode.

Jesse Ferguson: 14:04

Tom, I'm exploding with excitement for what I get to show to you.

Tom Butler: 14:09

That's awesome, and I am looking for ways to mix it up from time to time when it comes to what you hear here on the podcast, so I've invited Jesse to take on this episode. Jesse is easily one of the most creative people I know, so, jesse, it's time for you to reveal what cool thing you've created here.

Jesse Ferguson: 14:30

I found something to tell you and your listeners about. It involves a couple members of my family and a trumpet player. So can I take you on an adventure Like if your eardrums were the wheels of a bike? 100%, I'm ready for it. Does that make sense? Not really, okay.

Tom Butler: 14:56

But I'm ready to roll, I'm ready to have my eardrums roll.

Jesse Ferguson: 14:59

Yeah, okay, you get it, you get it.

Tom Butler: 15:07

So I'm hearing this, but where are we?

Jesse Ferguson: 15:34

We just completed a train ride from the airport in Amsterdam out to a canal, where there's a riverboat waiting for us. And here's the exciting part Strapped to our backpacks are our bike helmets. We are going on a cruise.

Judson Scott: 15:59

I've only been on two cruises in my life and the first one was for a friend's wedding and I felt like I had been locked in a mall for the weekend and I wasn't allowed out. It was sort of that level like the whole. For me, the whole thing was kind of that mediocre. You know the food, what you could do, and of course the friend's wedding was awesome and that was great, but the experience I don't get it. It's just not for me and this was completely not that.

Tom Butler: 16:33

You recognize this voice, tom, I sure do. I know that to be Judson Hi, judson Scott Because I get to see Judson in real life and also I've had him on the podcast numerous times, so other people probably recognize that voice too. Actually, judson, if you go all the way back to December 1st of 2023, you'll hear an episode that I did with Judson where he talks about how cycling had such a huge impact in his health.

Jesse Ferguson: 17:02

Yeah, so I visited Judson at the school of music at the university of Puget sound. I think we can go up to my trumpet studio.

Judson Scott: 17:10

The cruise that he apparently loved was a bike tour where I, you know, give trouble lessons here, and I think it'll be quiet enough.

Tom Butler: 17:20

Well, I'm so glad that you talked to him about that, because I have not heard how that bike cruise went for him.

Jesse Ferguson: 17:25

It's going to take me about five minutes to get set up. Okay, that's okay, yep.

Tom Butler: 17:28

How would you define what a bike cruise is?

Jesse Ferguson: 17:32

I could answer that, but I would rather have this woman answer it. I've been five times. This is Carrie Ferguson, who's actually my mom.

Carrie Ferguson: 17:44

With bike and barge hauling tours. We take off in the morning and we have our lunch with us and we go a certain distance and we meet up with the boat in a different place and the boat moves during the day while we're out. But other companies do it a little bit different.

Tom Butler: 18:03

I'm thinking that the staff probably enjoy times when everybody's off the boat and they kind of are there by themselves.

Judson Scott: 18:10

You could be on the boat if you wanted to be.

Jesse Ferguson: 18:12

Now Judson went on a tour with a different company called Boat Bike Tours.

Judson Scott: 18:18

There were some people who the cycling was just too much for, and so you could just stay on the boat, which, and, as boats go, it was kind of beautiful, and or you could just spend the whole day on the bike and you were seeing all these beautiful towns in the Netherlands and it was really quite magical.

Carrie Ferguson: 18:40

A lot of companies only take one week tours. Bike and Barge takes two week tours, and one day in the middle of all of that is a free day where you're not riding but you have an extended time to see an interesting city, like we've stopped in Leiden or in Denberg or in Leeuwarden.

Jesse Ferguson: 19:00

The Netherlands, often referred to as Holland, is a country located in northwestern Europe. It's known for its flat landscape, extensive canal systems, windmills, tulip fields and cycling routes. Now Judson toured on boat bike tours. It is a larger company, but there are others, one of which started quite a while back.

Lowry Snow: 19:23

My parents started the company over 30 years ago.

Jesse Ferguson: 19:26

Tom, this guy, I don't expect you to know.

Lowry Snow: 19:30

Lowry Snow, and my wife and I are the owners of Bike and Barge Holland Tours. My father did a bike trip to Europe and loved it. So he somehow secured a barge for the following year and was a member of Cascade Bike Club at the time, and so he rounded up enough guys to fill it and went and actually he his idea was that was a way to get a free bike trip to Europe. So that kind of worked for him and and everybody had a good time. So the next year he did a couple of trips and the next year maybe three, and he kept adding and adding until he got to a dozen or so, and that's how it grew.

Jesse Ferguson: 20:21

So this is where I really wanted to have a little help explaining the trips, because I actually haven't personally been on one.

Lucy Shaw: 20:29

Hello, I am Lucy Shaw.

Jesse Ferguson: 20:32

This woman is very important to me and to my mom.

Lucy Shaw: 20:37

I am Jesse's grandmother.

Jesse Ferguson: 20:41

So the company she discovered was Bike and Barge Holland Tours.

Lucy Shaw: 20:44

When I retired at age 65, I joined a little. I hadn't ridden a bike much at all since I was a teenager, but I joined up sort of an informal bike group near where I lived and one of the women was from the Netherlands. She had recommended the bike and barge to a group of her friends and they started talking about how wonderful the barge trips were in Holland and I decided I'd like to try it. So in another year or so I got together a group of folks and we signed up and went on a bike and barge trip. For the next 18 years I went on eight different tours, different routes each time, but in all those times I went with other folks that I knew, sometimes three or four of us and sometimes 20 of us together.

Jesse Ferguson: 21:43

When my grandma said she was going on a bike and barge tour, I was like why? What in the world? In my head I had this picture of a barge piled with, like old, rusty bikes, you know.

Judson Scott: 21:55

It's a barge, it's a river barge.

Tom Butler: 21:57

That's Judson. Again, I don't think of something luxurious. I have a tendency, when I think of a barge, think of something that like they drag trash away from the city on.

Jesse Ferguson: 22:07

Yeah, some huge rusty block of metal thing Right.

Judson Scott: 22:11

European style barge, not American style barge.

Jesse Ferguson: 22:15

What's the difference there?

Judson Scott: 22:16

Well, american style barge is kind of wide and flat and a European barge is more like a boat. That's just sits a little low so it can get under bridges, but it looks way more like a boat than you would think of as a barge here in America. Anyway, so the boat we were on, it was like 100 years old and during World War II they had taken it off into this marshy area and scuttled it, sunk it, so the Nazis couldn't use it. Wow, couldn't, like you know, take it. And so then after the war they floated again. There were 34 of us, 32. 32 of us and passengers, seven crew, and it was just pretty perfect. You know the cabins are a little small, but it would be everything you'd need. Everyone's got a bathroom attached to their cabin and, you know, whatever you don't really want to be sitting in your cabin. Anyway, it's a beautiful boat, so it was just lovely to walk onto it.

Lucy Shaw: 23:23

After we got back from our bike ride, each day we'd have a wonderful dinner served, and then after dinner, an hour or so later, we would have a meeting with our guides, who would tell us what the next day trip was going to be like, and at that time we would have plenty of time to visit with other folks and really get acquainted and share stories from the day with everybody.

Jesse Ferguson: 23:52

The boat itself is like 100 feet long and there's room on deck for all the bikes to be lined up. They have cover for them so they don't get wet in the rain. But the first night that you're on there you really focus on just getting settled in.

Lucy Shaw: 24:05

In the morning we would hear all about our bicycles. So we felt quite comfortable and at home right away and I believe we had a meal that evening in the dining room and got a little better acquainted.

Jesse Ferguson: 24:19

I want to pause the discussion of logistics and focus on what is it that people love about this so much?

Lucy Shaw: 24:31

We were for the most part bicycling down in the lowland, which of course in Holland is below sea level. We would have to get up onto the dike in this one area, which was one of the biggest dikes protecting the country from the sea, the country from the sea. And it was quite a huff and puff ride getting up the little road onto the dike because we were used to flat riding by then. And we got up there and this again was in the springtime but the wind was just howling. Whoo, the wind was just howling. And of course we had to ride a ways along that on the roadway which goes on top of the dike and it was kind of difficult riding against the wind but luckily it didn't have to be up there for too long. The water's a deep, deep blue color and rolling at that time because it was windy and loud and beautiful and washes up on the beach with a slam-bang splash Just kind of sent tingles down your back to see the force of nature here.

Tom Butler: 26:22

Absolutely beautiful.

Jesse Ferguson: 26:26

I would love all the exercise and all the physical stuff and being there with the wind and the waves and everything. But there's a really strong draw to these bike tours in Holland because there are so many fascinating things you get to see like an experience.

Carrie Ferguson: 26:45

Holland is part of the Netherlands.

Jesse Ferguson: 26:47

This is my mom again. She's a very observant and curious kind of a person.

Carrie Ferguson: 26:52

There's North Holland and South Holland are two of the states. In the Netherlands. They call them provinces. I really like the North-South Holland route that takes you in a big circle around down into South Holland and up into North Holland and back to Amsterdam again. It takes you to some unique heritage sites and places that are well-known, like Harlem, where the Ten Boom family lived. Corrie Ten Boom is pretty famous. Take you to Delft, where the Delft factory is, where they make Delft pottery, delft tiles. You see Kinderdijk, which is a World Heritage Site with 19 original windmills along a waterway. You get to see Rotterdam, which is one of the biggest cities in the Netherlands. You get to see Leiden, which was the birthplace of Rembrandt.

Tom Butler: 27:40

What comes to my mind is could I see inside any of those windmills?

Carrie Ferguson: 27:46

Oh yeah, we've been inside working windmills and it's really cool to go all the way up inside to the very top where the working gears are, and there's one windmill that you can go in. That is a lifting windmill. The wind is blowing the fins up on the top, which are going down and around. You can see the fins up on the top which are going down, and around. You can see the water being lifted by way of an Archimedes screw, which is underneath, and so that's pretty loud with all the sounds of the water going through, and so you're hearing the whooshing of that. You're hearing the low rumble of the. You're hearing the low rumble of the. There's a beam that is vertical in the middle of the windmill, which is about 18 inches square and goes from the screw all the way up to the top where the wind is pushing it around. As that beam is spinning, then there are gears that change the direction of the force to the Archimedes screw.

Judson Scott: 29:07

You would cycle by these houses that it's like. I don't know is that a castle or is that a house? There's not necessarily a bright line there.

Jesse Ferguson: 29:15

Our country is so much younger as far as like developing large buildings is concerned. We just don't get that experience here of being confused If it's a castle or not.

Judson Scott: 29:26

Right, right, we did stop at a medieval castle in. Okay, these all my pronunciations are just going to be out the window, so I'm just apologize, anyway. So we stopped in Münden at the Möderschlacht. It's a castle in Münden. It was open to the public. You paid something, an admission fee, and they, you know, they had armor around and you know you could see where the king or the duke or whoever lived there. Like, okay, here's where the toilet was that just dropped into the moat. You know, it was pretty. Anyway, it's, our lives are so much better now than they would have been, like even if you were a king back then. Like the way we live now is is ah, there's, you know, indoor plumbing it. It's a thing to praise.

Jesse Ferguson: 30:18

So apparently in these tours there's the option of doing your own tour, like just following GPS. But I think it would be more practical to do that if you actually knew the language.

Carrie Ferguson: 30:29

I mean, I'm just imagining being out there trying to find you know water and you don't know how to talk to the people. I wish I knew how to speak Dutch originally before I started going. I am learning Dutch now and I can converse with certain people in Dutch. Most of the people know some English, unless you get out of the main areas, but a lot of the smaller shops that you might want to go in and maybe ask for something or say something to the people who work there, especially older people, and they really appreciate it. Even if you're not speaking really good Dutch, they'll correct you and they'll smile and tell you that they understand you just fine.

Jesse Ferguson: 31:09

So maybe my mom could do a GPS trip, um, and she's. She's been learning Dutch for like two years now, but I feel like if or when I go or we go, which would be awesome, I think I'd miss out on some of the intellectual experience you know, without a guide.

Lucy Shaw: 31:26

Our hosts and our guides were all native from Holland, so they knew the area, but they also spoke all of them very good English, sometimes with a little accent. It was hard for us to get used to the guides are.

Judson Scott: 31:42

they're very nice, they have lots of knowledge, interesting things to tell you about, and so you know we'd ride for half an hour. They'd stop, people would get some water and rest, and you would stop at something that they would tell you about. You know whether it was a castle or um, a statue or whatever. You know. They had an endless supply of stories. What?

Tom Butler: 32:10

did you? What were some of the things that you came away from this, that you felt transformed your desire to go on a bike trip this way?

Jesse Ferguson: 32:24

There was a story that the owner of Bike and Barge Holland Tours shared. It was about that they were expecting there to be a ferry.

Lowry Snow: 32:37

One time we were looking for a ferry to cross the river and couldn't find one.

Jesse Ferguson: 32:42

They had planned. You know, like part of the route that day was they're going to get on the small ferry and go across some body of water and, like something was wrong, it was canceled, and so they had this group of bicyclists on the shore and they're like Is that why we can't get across here? And so the guide rode around and talked to people.

Lowry Snow: 33:00

And the guide found somebody that lived there that had a rowboat, and so they rode everybody, two at a time, across the river with their bikes so that they could continue the tour for the next I don't know half an hour hour.

Jesse Ferguson: 33:14

This guy was manually rowing them across and he was just like I'm taking bicycles, you know um, which, you know, set them back a little in time.

Lowry Snow: 33:22

But hey, it was a great story.

Jesse Ferguson: 33:24

So that kind of thing to me is adventure and stuff that you can't plan for. Like we talked about that. You know that to me was like really interesting, you know, like what do you do? Because you have to to get to where the barge is, you know, and so that's one thing that I was like man, I really want to have an adventure like this.

Lowry Snow: 33:47

You can't plan for everything, and it's the unexpected that becomes the fun and the stories that people remember.

Tom Butler: 33:54

So you like the concept that maybe it can't all be a hundred percent planned and organized. There's still that room to create something on the fly.

Jesse Ferguson: 34:06

Yeah, I mean, and it doesn't always have to be something as significant an interruption as that.

Lowry Snow: 34:13

Another time I can remember we rode into a town on a Sunday morning and everything was closed and we were looking for a coffee stop and we came across a lady right on the edge of town and asked her if she knew of anything in town or in the next town that might be open. And she thought for a minute. She said I can't think of anything, but I feel terrible about that. She says why don't you come in? And she took us through her house and out into her garden and she served us all coffee and tea and cookies and at the same time told us, um, uh, the history of their town and the architecture earner husband happened to be architect, so she was the old architecture. So it was a great time.

Tom Butler: 34:58

how cool yeah, it's too bad. They can't guarantee you'll have some unscripted or unplanned adventure.

Jesse Ferguson: 35:04

I'm under the impression that every tour has them. I mean, you're in an amazing land for that many days, so you're bound to run into adventures and stuff, complications, you know. Plus, each of the three people that I spoke with had stories. Some of them were silly, some of them were somber.

Lucy Shaw: 35:22

One of the fun parts for me was stopping at lunchtime and we packed our lunch and took our lunch with us and and picnicked for lunchtime. And sometimes it was in a nice little park and I remember one one park that had a a zip line of all things and some of our people were riding on this zip line and that could. That could be pretty funny, especially when they one of them fell off at the end and that was pretty funny just because it happened to somebody else and not myself was this another person who was retired already?

Jesse Ferguson: 36:08

Yes, okay, active group of people.

Carrie Ferguson: 36:12

There was a really brisk wind one day and we were riding against it, and in those kind of conditions our guide tells us to ride close together and line up one behind the other as a way, so that each rider can kind of break the wind for the other riders.

Jesse Ferguson: 36:29

You mean drafting.

Carrie Ferguson: 36:32

Yes, drafting. I was riding along with a 14-year-old who was with our group on our tour that particular year and I told him get in line behind the guide so that the guide could break the wind for him, which he did. And then we went around a wide turn in the road and, um, the wind was coming from a little bit different direction and there happened to be, uh, some crop fertilization going on there, which which really was overpowering.

Jesse Ferguson: 37:06

Was this one of the manure-based?

Carrie Ferguson: 37:08

Yes yes, and so Alex said I didn't know that that's what you meant by breaking the wind.

Carrie Ferguson: 37:18

And we both almost fell off our bikes laughing. We rode into this little town and it turns out that they were having a festival there that day and that was really cool because it was like a pumpkin squash festival, so there was a lot of people selling pumpkins and squash, but there was also garage sale kinds of sales and people selling their art. I bought some art from this woman who was doing these really colorful things with beeswax art from this woman who was doing these really colorful things with beeswax.

Tom Butler: 37:51

It sounds like there's just so much going on that the tour company can't predict what cool stuff you might come across.

Jesse Ferguson: 37:55

Yeah, but remember, it's not just the events that you're seeing, it's also the people.

Carrie Ferguson: 38:00

People, sorry. Communicating with all kinds of people is really fun. We're eating lunch in a little open mall area and there was a woman who walked by several times and stopped and watched us. Finally, she came up and asked where we were from and asked a few other questions and said I want you to come to tea at my house. And she said I'll tell you where I live. My house is white with green trim. You can go there. And she gave our guide directions. Unfortunately, we were not able to do that, but it's really funny because literally every house in that part of the country is white with green trim.

Judson Scott: 38:38

As it happened, there were a lot of Canadians on this trip and so they deviated from the normal path a little bit to stop by the Canadian cemetery from World War II. I believe Almost half of the tour were Canadian, so it was kind of a moving stop for them and you know, just to see row on row on row of crosses from people who never made it home. One of the guides Ronald read In Flanders Fields, which I believe is actually about war dead from World War I, but clearly appropriate, and I had my trumpet with me because I take it everywhere and I've been practicing in the mornings, and so they asked me to bring it out on this and to play the last post, which is the Canadian and European version of Taps.

Jesse Ferguson: 39:39

Just so we could hear it ourselves, I asked Judson to play it for us as I recorded him outside. I could just imagine standing beside rows and rows of graves. You're overseas, You're surrounded by this palpable history.

Judson Scott: 40:49

And again, this is just another one of the unplanned adventures on one of these trips.

Jesse Ferguson: 40:52

Yeah, so that was actually a very moving stop. Yeah, that's beautiful that you had your instrument and were able to contribute to the mourning of your fellow shipmates.

Judson Scott: 41:03

Yes, I was. They were a little tentative about asking, not wanting to impose upon me in my time, but I was. Yeah, no, I was. I mean kind of any musician wants to play.

Jesse Ferguson: 41:19

I think it's a good time for us to return to talking about the logistics again. How does this all work? How do we get our rental?

Tom Butler: 41:27

bikes. Okay, so here's the thing I would prefer to have my own bike.

Jesse Ferguson: 41:30

Yeah, judson mentioned the idea of bringing his own bike, but he was told like you're gonna like these bikes better because if you had your bike, you'd be so much faster than everybody else that you'd be waiting all the time. And you're more upright, you get to see things better. It's just, uh, it's a different style of writing. The stuff that they provide you helps. You have the experience that you're paying for.

Tom Butler: 41:52

I would least like to have my own helmet. Well, you do bring your own helmet.

Lucy Shaw: 41:56

Yes, you have to take your helmet and, of course, whatever cycling clothes are comfortable for you and they have quite a list of things you should bring.

Carrie Ferguson: 42:11

They want us to send, like the length of our inseam and our height and different basic measurements just a few. And then they have rental bikes that are pretty adjustable. It doesn't always work. They have a bike that they have earmarked for us and they have our name on it. But things happen Like. One of my friends, who happens to be rather short, was given a bike that was too tall for her and she couldn't even straddle it and someone had misread the numbers that she'd put onto her form. But for the most part they're pretty adjustable. The seat can be adjusted easily and the handlebars have maybe three different ways that they can go, so that they can be higher or further back.

Judson Scott: 43:00

And then when you got there, there were two guides. They made sure everybody's bike fit them and probably about half the people had e-bikes and half the people had just regular analog bikes. The very first day we tried out our bikes, got them, you know, sized for ourselves, and then we just did like a 15-minute ride around the harbor just to like, yeah, this bike works, it fits you, this is going to be fine. And a couple of people like switched out to e-bikes that day.

Jesse Ferguson: 43:31

How far did you go each day?

Judson Scott: 43:33

There was usually a 20 mile route and maybe a 30 mile route.

Carrie Ferguson: 43:38

Yep, there are two separate rides. One is a shorter ride, the other one's a longer ride. The shorter ride usually has extra stops and go a little bit slower. The longer ride might take a longer side trip over to see something else that might be interesting. The shorter ride sometimes goes to museums or other places of interest that the longer group misses because they're riding for a longer distance.

Judson Scott: 44:03

And you know, maybe it would be 22 and 36 or whatever, but you know, and would be 22 and 36 or whatever. But you know, and um, and basically you had all day, so I mean honestly, 20 miles over potentially eight hours. It's just not that much much. Pedaling not sound very intense and the and the groups would just change daily, like you just went with one guy to the other and um, so one of them always rode an analog bike and one of them always rode an e-bike, and if your bike broke down, they would give you their bike and they would deal with the broken bike.

Judson Scott: 44:38

And this happened to me. Actually my bike was like I was. When I first started. I was like, man, this is not a very good bike. And it just turned out I hadn't noticed that the disc brakes were like on and they, they did not release, and then it wasn't, until I just sort of accidentally spun the wheel and it stopped to me. I was like, oh, there's something up here. This was like two or three days in and so, um, so. But then, you know, they fixed it and then it kind of happened again and then they did a more involved fix and then it was totally fine for the rest of the trip and then at night we come back to the barge. Hey, hi.

Carrie Ferguson: 45:21

We have a little bit of break. We have time to take showers and get cleaned up and meet in the dining hall for dinner. And dinner is served in different ways depending on what day it is. Often it's a buffet where you go by and take the food you want, but on a fancy banquet night they might come and serve you at the table and bring platters of food to the table to pass around. They accommodate dietary needs. It's nice when the captain happens to be a vegetarian, because then the vegetarian meals are good too Like.

Judson Scott: 46:01

I said they changed the itinerary to take this little detour through the Canadian cemetery. The itinerary to take this little detour through the Canadian cemetery as it happened, my brother in law's birthday was the second day, so they baked a cake and they you know, they just immediately adapted to that situation. It's sort of a bespoke life that you don't usually live, you know to like have a group of people, two guides, a captain, a sailor and then maybe three waitstaff, really just making sure that you have a good time. Yeah, that's not my normal life.

Jesse Ferguson: 46:39

It sounds like they do a great job at that. The only problem is that eventually the trip has to end. My mom had one word for this.

Carrie Ferguson: 46:49

Sad I'd like to word for this Sad. I'd like to stay a little bit longer, but also it's nice to get home and sleep in my own bed. I like to extend my trip out on one or both ends and do something extra, like stop in Iceland and do a couple tours or see some of the sites there before heading on to the Netherlands or afterwards. Last time we stayed afterwards and went to Berlin, and that was really neat, since you're already over there spending the time and the money to have a little bit more experience without adding a whole lot more cost onto it.

Lowry Snow: 47:30

How much did it all cost?

Carrie Ferguson: 47:33

It seems like 3000 is about good for airfare, and two and the tour is probably another three to 4,000.

Jesse Ferguson: 47:42

No, you're a musician. Yes, are you aware that there is a musician from that part of the world who wrote a song about how much better biking is than driving?

Judson Scott: 47:54

uh, no, who's that?

Jesse Ferguson: 47:55

yes, his name is martin. He, uh, you know, remember the marble machine. He cranked this big thing and there was ball bearings falling on a vibraphone oh sure, uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, so he wrote a song called Biking is Better.

Judson Scott: 48:13

It's true, it is.

Jesse Ferguson: 48:21

Before he introduces this song at concerts, he talks about how there's different ways that biking is actually better than cars. At concerts, he talks about how there's different ways that biking is actually better than cars. So he's as a musician, using art as part of his activism for bike culture around the world. Martin simply describes his music as instrumental, but he has this mindset about music and business and the planet that I'll admit I find attractive. And to get the album you just go to the website and download it. Part of the license says that you have to tell people that it's free on the website. But biking is free too. I mean it's better than free, right, it doesn't create exhaust, you don't spend your money on gas and you actually get healthier whenever you commute. But when I look at the massive bike culture and infrastructure in the Netherlands and the surrounding countries, including Sweden, where Martin is from, I feel like our country is far behind and that maybe we have found a teacher like Sensei Amsterdam.

Judson Scott: 49:35

Around here bicyclists. We're kind of all in it together because we all just want to not die by car. We're all just trying to like survive.

Jesse Ferguson: 49:47

In the Netherlands they got about 17 million people there, but in the country there's about 22 million bikes and if you do the math you know that's like 1.3 1.4 bikes per person. Here we have 0.5 bikes per person. I think if we keep on stating that biking is better in all the different ways that we do, then we can tip the scales. I mean, maybe we can do better than Amsterdam someday.

Tom Butler: 50:17

You know it's hard to imagine us doing better than Amsterdam because they have such a head start on us, but it would be beautiful. You know we talk about this on the podcast quite a bit different episodes but it would be beautiful to see us get closer. I think we are. I do think that there's a possibility that that expansion is under threat right now, but I just really look forward to the day when we look more like Amsterdam.

Jesse Ferguson: 50:50

Yeah, but Amsterdam has its challenges. It's like super crowded with bikes, so you rode in Amsterdam. Yes, there's a lot of bikes in Amsterdam.

Judson Scott: 51:02

It's true, it's really true, the um and I will. Riding a bike in Amsterdam is a little bit like driving a car in New York City, Like, if you don few people, and at the end, like when everyone had been on bikes for a while. You know, and even me, I was riding a bike, I didn't know. I was glad that we ended in Amsterdam because it's you know, when you're out on a bike you're always worried about the cars, and in Amsterdam you really don't have to worry about the cars, you kind of have to worry about the other cyclists. It's a little intense, you know. And look, they're all commuting, they know where they're going and as a tourist who doesn't know where they're going, you have to be a little careful.

Tom Butler: 52:02

I'm okay with super crowded with bikes. I'm okay with cities being super crowded with people, but when you make them super crowded with cars, then the car takes up so much space per person that it's just a very different thing, hmm.

Jesse Ferguson: 52:22

Judson brought up to me the old Danish motto luktor et emergo, which means I struggle and surface again. You'll see this painted on buildings and stuff around there, but it signifies a profound resilience, the essence of the human experience. As you pedal through Holland, most of the time the adversary that's like pushing you down is water.

Judson Scott: 52:50

Every day is about keeping the water out, and you know, hence the windmills. You know it's all about pumping the water out to keep them, to empty the marsh.

Jesse Ferguson: 53:00

But as you fall asleep on the barge or listen to this podcast, that motto quickly expands and if you let it get under your skin, like the Dutch do, a certain sense of purpose can grow. There are people like my grandmother.

Carrie Ferguson: 53:18

People who aren't afraid to do something new. People who aren't afraid to be in environments that are different Instead of relaxing on an ocean liner, you're getting on a bike and pedaling and making the fun for yourself. People who are more adventurous and want to be physically active.

Jesse Ferguson: 53:39

And these folks are the ones who keep turning their cranks using our trails. And just being on the trails calls for more infrastructure.

Tom Butler: 53:48

I think there's two things to that. I think one thing is that we would have it more in mind to make statements to everybody around us. I enjoyed that trail, I love that you go with me, and so I think that using it personally changes our focus. And so I think that using it personally changes our focus that, collectively, that individual change of focus would add up to different policies. As we're talking to our legislators, we're talking to different people. That focus gets brought up more, but then the other thing is people noticing cyclists up more, but then the other thing is people noticing cyclists the more people that are out there on bikes, it gives opportunity for someone to see that and to think about bikes and to think about bike infrastructure as part of the deal. Right now, everything is so car centric that people look around and they see everything about cars, and we need to have the bicycle and bike infrastructure in our vision in order for people to be more comfortable.

Jesse Ferguson: 54:58

That that's an important part of it like when I am talking to you, that I'm part of that tribe, that that group of people who, um, appreciate and seek the, that kind of vitality, yeah, yeah, yeah. And these people who are kind of adventurous, I mean, it's the kind of people that would also want to go on a trip like this rather than just watch a movie.

Tom Butler: 55:30

I want to be that person. I want to have that energy just kind of infused in my soul when I think about going to do something as a vacation or go experience a new place. I want to have it that. I want to do that in an active way, and that's what a bicycle provides is a way to actively enjoy something, and I want that just baked into who I am.

Jesse Ferguson: 55:58

Yeah, and there's lots of people that are like this. That's right.

Carrie Ferguson: 56:01

Different times you would pass fields of flowers like tulips or hyacinths or roses. I remember roses one time we would get off the bike and kind of go down next to the field and just take pictures of them.

Judson Scott: 56:13

So as we were getting closer to Amsterdam, I mean, we were just riding through ritzier and ritzier neighborhoods and so it was just beautiful all the time. And so you know, we'd be riding through somebody's backyard and everything is lush and green and beautifully landscaped flowers spilling over the edge of the canal, draped into the canal, or an evergreen that you know is very sculptural, it's like a natural statue, you know, and just cool and calm and beautiful. It just made you feel lighter to just because you were just cycling through this gorgeous landscape, yeah, and just every, you know you turn a corner and then it's like, oh my gosh, that's even more beautiful. How is that possible? I just, I just couldn't believe.

Tom Butler: 57:19

So do you think Holland, if you were given a choice of going anywhere, do you think Holland would be your choice after hearing all of this, or is there another place that you're more curious about doing this kind of adventure?

Jesse Ferguson: 57:33

I'm very curious about Holland. I love mechanical things and I just really want to go and climb up inside one of those windmills and see all the gears and the energy transfers and all that. That sounds really amazing. Holland is such a weird place. I keep on thinking why don't you just import some dirt and make it taller and not have to worry about the dykes? I don't know, I want to see what they think about that. I mean, I know they built it Anyway.

Tom Butler: 57:58

Well, I really appreciate you doing this, bringing some creativity to the Cycling Over 60 podcast, and I felt like my eardrums went for a ride.

Jesse Ferguson: 58:11

See, it did make sense, Tom. I'm going to let Judson have the last line today, and after that I want to play the entire song. Biking is Better, but I have just set you up for your final line age is just a gear change it seems like like I love riding my bike through a beautiful area and you just get to absorb it quicker than if you're walking. You know it comes through your vision and it's not boring because you're moving, but it's also not so fast that you don't get to see it.

Judson Scott: 58:50

Right, right, right. Um, yeah, it's the perfect. Speed. Walking, you can't cover enough ground. Driving you don't? No-transcript.

Jesse Ferguson: 1:02:26

You're welcome. Oh, that's, it yeah.