Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 18, becoming a bike advocate, and I'm your host, tom Butler. I'm coming up on two years since the launch of the Cycling Over 60 podcast. The podcast has given me the opportunity to meet so many awesome people, so I'm happy that there are a few ways to join in with the Cycling Over 60 community now. First, send feedback and help shape the podcast by sending me a text message. At the top of the show notes you should see a link that says send me a text message, or you can find my email address in the show notes. Another way of participating is by joining the Cycling Over 60 Strava Club. I know I say this all the time, but I just love seeing the rides you all are doing. A relatively new community activity is for anybody who has an indoor trainer. I'm opening up a Zoom chat at 3 pm Pacific time on Thursdays. If you use Zwift, you can also join our virtual ride at the same time by becoming a member of the Cycling Over 60 Zwift group. It was so fun being joined by Linda and Jeff last Thursday and I look forward to seeing more people join in. If you don't have Zwift but you have a trainer. Consider scheduling a time for Thursdays at 3 pm Pacific time and drop by the Zoom chat to join us. Or even if you aren't writing on Thursday, drop by the Zoom chat and say hi or ask a question. Reach out through email for the Zoom link or if you have any questions about getting connected.

Tom Butler: 1:41

One of the areas of focus this season is personalized medicine getting connected. One of the areas of focus this season is personalized medicine. It has been an interesting journey to understand my health on a more individual and functional level. I'm disappointed that one of my biggest issues is that my pancreas isn't functioning normally. Hopefully, medical research will help find a way to restore beta cell function. It's likely that I'll be modifying my food intake for the rest of my life to overcome that dysfunction. As I have said here before, I recommend people to look beyond blood glucose level and make sure that your insulin output is optimal. I've made a decision to make a shift to my diet. There are people that believe that a very low-fat, plant-based diet is the only way to optimize glucose utilization at the cellular level. Some of you might know from listening to the podcast that my wife, kelly, is one of those believers. While I'm not crazy about making this shift, it is worth it for me to give it a try. I'm actually going to give it six months before making a call about whether or not it is something I want to continue to do. You'll be hearing many more details about this change in the weeks to come.

Tom Butler: 2:46

I've been trying to get ready for the first organized group ride of the year. It's called Chili Hilly and it's put on by Cascade Bicycle Club. I'm not too worried about the chili part, but I am nervous about the hilly. If you're curious, you can search Chili Hilly, cascade Bicycle Club and see the route. I've been trying for about a week now to build up my climbing strength. That's since I learned that the virtual training that I do doesn't really match climbing for me in real life. I ride a segment that is near to my home that has a climb that's about a quarter of a mile long. It's an average grade of 10.3%, with a section that is 15 to 16%. While it's not a long segment, it is something that really tests me and I feel like it is a good segment for building up my legs. While the Chilly Hilly doesn't have anything that steep, the hills are much longer. I'm going into the Chilly Hilly, which happens this next weekend, with only a moderate level of confidence that I'm going to be able to handle it. One of my biggest concerns is that I'm cramping up more often these days and I think that has the potential of being an issue in the last five miles of the 32-mile Chilly Hilly route. There is a food stop at 15 miles, so I'm going to do my best to have a solid cramp prevention strategy for that stop. Let me know if you have any tried and true cramp interventions. The two things that I will be doing for sure is making sure that I am stretching out a lot whenever we stop and also taking in more electrolytes than I have in the past. I set out this season to do seven organized rides before November. Chilly Hilly is the first one and I'm excited to get the party started.

Tom Butler: 4:39

Last week I spent a couple of days with the awesome people from Washington Bikes in Olympia, our state capital. On day one, we heard about the legislative priorities of WAP bikes. We also were given instructions on how to talk about these priorities with our representatives. Washington is projected to experience a major budget shortfall over the next few years, so we know that funds that should go into bike infrastructure are at risk for being moved elsewhere. On the second day, I joined my new cycling buddy, greg, and met with one of our state representatives. The entire experience was huge for me. I sincerely enjoyed the time we spent with our representative. He didn't make any promises, but he listened closely to what we had to say.

Tom Butler: 5:19

It wasn't just that I was talking about cycling. This was the first time I have engaged in democracy in that way. I feel like this is an important time to be engaged, and I would recommend that everyone find a group of cyclists to join together and visit your representatives. One of the great people I met during our time in Olympia is Michael Payne. After hearing about Michael's interests and background, I asked him to be on the podcast. I'm so glad he was willing to join me. Here's our conversation. I am joined by someone who I've just recently met. Thank you, michael Payne, for coming on the podcast.

Michael Payne: 5:53

Hi, tom, thanks for having me.

Tom Butler: 5:56

I wanted Michael to come on because I see Michael as an advocate and a cycling advocate and I think you've had some interesting experiences and I just wanted people to hear from you.

Michael Payne: 6:10

Happy to join you today and I'm happy to share with the goal that hopefully something is helpful to someone out there somewhere Awesome.

Tom Butler: 6:18

Let me ask you this what is your earliest memory of the bicycle?

Michael Payne: 6:22

I was thinking about that the other day. Certainly I have very early memories on a bicycle of learning how to ride with my father in my elementary school parking lot which are sort of what one would typically think of in terms of the joy and the freedom associated with rolling away from his hand as he falls behind on the parking lot not falling literally, but is left behind and that is certainly favorable. I also have memories of getting on a tricycle which you didn't ask me about when I was even younger and getting pushed off of a patio onto a broken bottle. But we're not going to go down that route because that wasn't as pleasant of a story.

Tom Butler: 7:11

Sounds like one of those memories you'd like to forget, actually.

Michael Payne: 7:14

That's true, there is some risk associated with these sort of early adventures, but overall I have very fond early memories.

Tom Butler: 7:22

It seems like your interest in cycling has persisted from early on in life. What has kept you interested in it?

Michael Payne: 7:29

You know, the main thing that really is, is, has is, is. Keeping me interested is a belief that the technology is great and it's really under deployed, given the capacity for change that can happen in people's lives. You know, I see it bringing joy and freedom to people still at all ages of their lives. I see it adding materially to people's health and their quest for longevity, and I see it bringing economic benefits and, of course, on a society level, bringing great, you know, environmental benefits as well and and I just you know I'm motivated by the sort of the fundamentals that it brings to people's lives now, if I'm correct, you got involved in advocacy right out of college, is that right?

Michael Payne: 8:41

I did. I was bike commuting in atlanta, living in town and commuting out to Decatur and was, you know, finding that to be less than a great experience and sort of looking around to see what was going on. I somehow came in touch with what was called the Atlanta Bicycle Coalition at that point. It now was merged with walking groups and goes by the name Propel, but I joined the board at that stage as they were just making the transition from being an all-volunteer organization to having their first paid staff and that sort of formally put me in bicycle advocacy.

Tom Butler: 9:19

Is there something about that that matches your personality? I mean, it seems like you could complain a lot, you know, as you're riding around and not do anything. But is there something about how you see the world that you know that was important for you to to do something?

Michael Payne: 9:38

the other day, somebody said why did? Why do people get involved in bicycle advocacy? Or the question was asked in a group, and, and and somebody said it's usually has something to do with your mother, and and uh, I thought that was a clever answer and I reflected on my own mother, who was person who leaned into challenges in life and tended to engage and not shy away from them, and I'm. I have no doubt that she influenced me in that way and that's part of the reason why I felt like I should make time to be involved in that and volunteer with that group. But how about a shout out to all the moms out there?

Tom Butler: 10:16

That's right. Yay, moms. Now you're a leader. You've led diverse organizations, from tech startups to nonprofits, from tech startups to nonprofits, and I'm wondering, in that capacity of being a leader, what have you learned about engaging people with advocacy efforts?

Michael Payne: 10:42

It's a good question, I think you know. One of the things that I have learned is that different people are motivated by different reasons. Bicycle advocacy organizations really have to find out what motivates their population and make sure they're communicating in a way that reaches that audience. Some people are motivated out of principle. Other people have to go on a journey before they really embrace bicycle advocacy, and you know so. Bicycle organizations organize rides and bring people into the community through recreation and through fun. As a channel to reach people. There's definitely an element of understanding who you're communicating with and making sure that you're giving them what they need and meeting them where they are and helping bring what they need to their lives.

Tom Butler: 11:27

You and I met we're down in Olympia. There was WA Bikes Washington Bikes. It was there advocating for bicycle legislation and funding safe street legislation, and so we got to hang out, and you know, with other cyclists that were advocating for change or for protecting funding. I think cyclists are just really fun people to be around. I mean, maybe that's a bias I have, but it seems like there's something you know about a group of cyclists is really fun to hang out.

Michael Payne: 12:05

I enjoy all aspects of it as well, and there you know about a group of cyclists is really fun to hang out. I enjoy all aspects of it as well. And there, you know, I think there's something about people who are engaging for something better as well which is sort of inspirational and and uplifting, and I find that that's a great thing to have in your life. You know, you don't get that out of all other aspects of life necessarily, but putting yourself in an environment where people are working for positive change is a positive thing, and that certainly was true of the bicycle advocacy that I've been involved in in the past, and I think it's just sort of fundamental to the people who are attracted to it.

Tom Butler: 12:43

One of the leadership roles you were in was the first executive director of Bike Houston. What led to the launch of Bike Houston?

Michael Payne: 12:55

Can you talk a little bit about that organization? A lot of times bicycle advocacy organizations start as a few people who ride getting together and saying, hey, let's get organized and let's try and improve conditions. And they start meeting monthly, they start engaging with their city council members or their state representatives talking about problems, and they do it on a volunteer basis for some period of time. As momentum grows, as their ability to generate revenue grows, they start to think, gee, you know, depending on the size of the community and the city that they're working in the capacity to raise money is easier or more difficult. But they often get to a point where they say, gee, there's a lot of work to do here. Let's take some of the money that we're raising and let's hire a staff person to coordinate this activity and to run this organization. And then it goes from being an all-volunteer team to having its first employee and maybe opening an office somewhere and increasing the level of activity engagement. And that's really where Bike Houston was at that point.

Michael Payne: 14:04

It had existed as an organization for many years. It organized some rides, it had a bit of a budget, it had a small group of sort of dedicated volunteers and members, but it was wanting to make the next step and a friend of mine said, hey, maybe you can help them. I had some free time between jobs and he said look, you can do a search for them and help them find the right person, knowing that I'd been involved in it in the past. And I said I'd be happy to work on that and started meeting with the board and the people and looking at the opportunity and just decided that I would like to be considered for that opportunity and put my hat in the ring and was able to take that role on and do it for a number of years and get an office up and running, hire some staff. We wrote some grants, which were successful, fortunately, and it was a very exciting project to work on. Needless to say, Nice.

Tom Butler: 14:59

Do you stay connected with that? How would you say the conditions are in Houston for cyclists these days?

Michael Payne: 15:06

I would say I stay in touch with the executive director and several people on the board and different members as well, a couple times a year and I still support the organization, both financially as well as from a sort of an ecosystem perspective, if you will. You know, I would say right now it's tough, to be honest. It's tough because, even though Houston has been a pretty relatively forward-thinking city as far as the urban area goes, we have a mayor there now who is less convinced about the benefits of cycling and who has been pushing back and that's quite a challenge for the communities there Talking about removing infrastructure, bike lanes that have actually taken years to be put in place and nobody's really asking for them to be taken out. But for some reason there is a bit of a bike lash moment happening in Houston, which you see in other parts of the world at times.

Tom Butler: 16:05

That's interesting and it's kind of interesting to follow that to see what the progression of that is like.

Michael Payne: 16:12

It is even in a place like Seattle and you know, in Bellevue. There are issues here locally as well, which you know. Things come up and people change in elected offices. They come in and they have different priorities, and that's something that the cycling community needs to remain on top of and vigilant about.

Tom Butler: 16:32

Now you served on numerous boards, including Safe Routes to School, and I'm wondering your perspective on how important it is for like-minded organizations to collaborate on. You know things like safe streets and public health and well-being.

Michael Payne: 16:49

From my perspective, partnering is fundamental to the success of nonprofit organizations. It is. It's something that brings credibility to the organization in terms of the you know, when stakeholders see them working together, they see buy-in on different shared objectives. It's something that brings learning as people talk about the environment, what's going on, they share ideas. It accelerates change. It leverages the activity basically to help achieve outcomes faster, which is really what it's all about.

Tom Butler: 17:23

Yeah, I like it. Yeah, what it's all about. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, an organization that I have, for quite a while, been curious about is the league of American bicyclists, and you're a board member of the league. Um, is it called the league for short, or how do you guys refer to it?

Michael Payne: 17:41

It is. Some people call it the league for short. Yes, okay, sometimes the website is bikeleagueorg, for example. So that's also. You know. The bike league sometimes is referred to the league, sometimes people. The old name was, of course, the League of American Wheelmen. Some people call it LAW or law, and that's sort of if you're speaking with old timers you might hear people say that as well.

Tom Butler: 18:07

Yeah, Now I'm wondering, as a board member, what excites you about the organization?

Michael Payne: 18:15

I think fundamentally the most exciting thing about the organization is the potential to continue to grow where we are today, given the opportunity in front of us and when you think about what's happening in North America we're in the United States specifically we're selling about 20 million bicycles a year.

Michael Payne: 18:35

Those bicycles are going to, you know, everyone from age four up to age whatever, 90, if you will, but in our country there are, you know, there are surveys done on how much bicycles are being ridden by the bicycle industry, the people that manufacture the bicycles, and we know that there are about 110 million people a year who ride a bike, you know, several times a year and the last 12 months have been riding.

Michael Payne: 19:05

So for selling 20 million a year, you know you can easily say there's there's probably 200 million bicycles in our country of 340 million people, but in the last 12 months 100 plus have been writing and a very small number of those are actually engaged in bicycle advocacy. So from my perspective, there's a very exciting opportunity to communicate with people who own bicycles but have never engaged in advocacy either personally, in terms of volunteering, as you were talking you've just been doing how we met or who donate any money to fund the staff who could advocate on their behalf, which is a great alternative for people who are too busy to advocate or don't want to do that because they would rather go ride their bicycle or whatever. Right, I'm excited about growing those numbers.

Tom Butler: 19:56

When you say you're excited about it. Do you think that there are some you've figured out, or that it's figured out, how to improve that engagement, or is there still a lot to uncover about how to get those people engaged?

Michael Payne: 20:11

I wish I could say I've totally figured it out, tom. It'd be a slam dunk. We're going to get everyone who owns a bicycle to engage in advocacy, because if we could get 1% of people who own a bicycle to engage in advocacy, that would be great. We would have a very powerful bicycle lobby in our country and we would see change in a significant way in terms of infrastructure that allows people of all ages to cycle around their cities, to get out of town into rural areas safely and comfortably, without having to stop and wait and cross dangerous intersections and all those sorts of things. So I certainly don't think we've figured it out. My hope is that by people getting engaged who want to see change and who want to work on how do we grow the pie of people who donate a small amount of money or a small amount of time to advocacy, that we can accelerate the process and that can go faster and faster as we go forward. Now I'm hopeful, but I don't think we've solved it yet and I think at the end of the day, it boils down to fundamentally understanding where people are and what they want out of their future.

Michael Payne: 21:25

I mean, we know there are 115 million people that have ridden a bike in the last 12 months. We know in the United States, if you look at charitable giving as a sort of a research category, that two-thirds of Americans donate to charity every year to charitable causes. So if you take those numbers and put them together and you say about two thirds of the people who ride bikes are probably donating to charity, that's about 75 million people, right, and we just need to target that group of people and ask those people to lean in a bit on bicycle advocacy and either support the league at a national level or support their state or local level, or support their state or local level or support all three. Quite frankly, you know, giving 50 bucks a piece to each of those three organizations, if people could afford to do that, would be a great contribution to change.

Tom Butler: 22:17

You know, something that's popped in my head here as you're talking is there's a group of people that most likely have bikes in their garages, that are lawmakers. I'm wondering. It seems like there's a view of what the bicycle is. Maybe that people don't think that it needs to be protected.

Michael Payne: 22:40

Well, it's funny you should say that I met with three of my representatives in Olympia earlier this week. I met with three of my representatives in Olympia earlier this week and I asked the two, who were positive about bicycles, if they own bicycles and they both said yes, they do, and neither of them are actively using them. I think they fall in that category of maybe 100 million bikes or so that are owned and out there that haven't been ridden in the last 12 months, or maybe, if they have, just minimally. But of course WA Bikes is offering, and I'm offering, to take those people for a ride and help them get to know their community a little bit more intimately and see it from the top of a bicycle, and we hope to do that this spring as the weather warms up. But that's certainly a great way to engage with your representatives as you talk to them about their own personal experience. Why don't you ride more often? What prevents you from doing that? Why are you not comfortable?

Tom Butler: 23:39

was my way of navigating around that town. There was never a thought in my family, you know, there wasn't a fear of me jumping on my bike at a young age and taking off, you know, and it seems like getting people to think about. You know, do you feel it's safe to let your kid go out on the road, you know, on their bike? And I'm not even talking about alone, I'm talking about do you feel it's safe riding on the roads with your nine-year-old kid? Right, you know, and just that concept. It seems like a really such a wholesome thing that people do, and just that concept. Do you see it safe?

Michael Payne: 24:30

Well, an interesting thing is when you read about the history of our country and the history of the creation of the roads. Of course, the first road users were not cars, and you know, road users were people, and horses and horse drawn carriages and wagons, if you will. And it wasn't until significantly later that cars came to the road along with motorcycles, and there became this issue of sharing the roads. And then we moved to. No roads are dominated by cars and their motorcycles are out there trying to survive, and a few bicyclists are trying to survive using the roads as well. And so this whole shift has taken place whereby legally— horses and people and bikes and everybody still has a right to the to use the roads, but the you know, the reality is the roads have been designed to move cars as fast as possible, not to create a safe environment for all road users. You know, that's something we're now trying to correct yeah, and really think about on a deep level.

Tom Butler: 25:40

You know and we were talking about this last episode as well a book called Fighting Traffic by Peter Norton. You know it's just stepping back and philosophically, you know, asking the question is do we want to be so car centric, so automobile centric in our country? It's a I think it's a fair question to ask.

Michael Payne: 26:02

You know, it's something that unfortunately we live in a very large country and many people it's very expensive to leave the country. Many people don't have the opportunity to look around and live in other countries or visit other countries and see how other things are happening. I'm a big believer in benchmarking and, wherever you can, zooming out to a high level and sortates. Bicycling and walking is pretty amazing and it leads to a very high quality of life where people are very happy, they're very healthy and they're riding their bikes a lot.

Tom Butler: 26:59

The League of American Bicyclists has existed since 1880. You mentioned that it existed under another name for a while. It blows me away. I mean that is a long time for an organization to be going. I'm wondering if you have some thoughts about what contributes to that longevity.

Michael Payne: 27:20

I guess what I would say is you have to stay relevant, right.

Michael Payne: 27:23

You have to evolve as an organization or as a company or as a product in order to survive the way our world works.

Michael Payne: 27:32

There's competition and we have to raise our money every year to pay the staff and to fund the website and the activities and the programs that are delivered as benefits to our stakeholders.

Michael Payne: 27:44

So continuing to try and listen and understand where people are and what they want is fundamental. It's really important to us as an organization and if there are listeners to this podcast who have feedback they'd like to share on the league over the last year or two recent feedback, I would love to take that feedback in and represent it to the organization as a means of trying to stay relevant and trying to serve our stakeholders and our constituents as best as we can, just as a sort of an open message. You know, at the end of the day, you have to change what you're offering and you have to listen to what people want in order to to survive and to grow. And and you know, I think we can do better as an organization to be perfectly direct, and you know I I hope we will do better and we will grow more and be more effective in in meeting people's needs.

Tom Butler: 28:38

You mentioned to me that you feel that part of that effectiveness is having a strong relationship between the league and local advocacy groups. I'm wondering if there's some specific strategies that you think of in fostering that collaboration.

Michael Payne: 28:55

This is something that has happened. It has existed for some time. If you were starting a country on a blank piece of paper and you were saying, how am I going to design an organization to meet the needs of cyclists across the country? And there was money coming out of a federal government that was being distributed to state governments and county governments, you could envision one organization and county governments. You could envision one organization that operated at all three levels at the national level, state level and the county, local level. That's not the history of bicycle advocacy in our country. It's been a grassroots evolution where organizations grow up.

Michael Payne: 29:35

People tend to get involved in advocacy, first on very, very local issues, something happening in their neighborhood, on their street. They care about that, so they form groups, they get organized and then they learn more about what's happening at a state level and how it interrelates and maybe they support that organization also. And then they sort of say, oh yeah, but where's all this money coming from? It's coming from the federal government, or 80% of it's coming from the federal government. So maybe I should support the League of American Bicyclists also and help strengthen that whole pipeline.

Michael Payne: 30:03

To get more funds flowing you have to believe in the system. It's further removed, it takes longer, more time than working on a street in your own neighborhood, but that actually is the journey that many people go down as they discover advocacy on a broader level. So, you know, creating a culture of collaboration and cooperation between the local groups and the state and national groups is very important. And trust, quite frankly and you know there's a great saying that change happens at the speed of trust. And as you build trust between the organizations, change happens faster because they're collaborating more, they're cooperating more and not seeing each other as a competitor. For you know, a $50 membership donation that maybe a cyclist isn't going to give to two organizations, so they don't want to miss out on that. And I think we have to get beyond the fear of competition and work together as advocates to build one giant tent and pull all the cyclists into it.

Tom Butler: 31:05

The league is in Washington DC. That means that I have people in Washington DC that are passionate about cycling, like I'm passionate about cycling. Do you think that that makes a difference? Just being there?

Michael Payne: 31:19

I think it's very important that they are there so that they can meet with staffers, they can meet with congressmen, senators, where possible, to help shape the agenda and to engage in discussions and be at the table, have a seat at the table.

Michael Payne: 31:35

I do think that it's important for the league to be out in the field as well and to get around the country and to talk to people, let people know who they are and what they're doing and, you know, to be guest speakers at state organizations or city organizations and to show up once a year and tell the story of what's happening and that that is that's very important and I think, quite frankly, there's a big role to be played by an organization like the league in terms of sharing best practices and having an overview of what's happening all around the country and saying look, okay, you guys are.

Michael Payne: 32:07

You now have three paid staff and you're trying to get to six paid staff in the next two years. How are you going to raise the money to fund that activity and that expansion? Here's how your revenues are breaking down. Now you should think about doing X, y and Z to grow your revenues and strengthen your team, given where you are on the sort of journey as an advocacy organization, and you know we are doing that and we need to do more of it and we need to do it faster.

Tom Butler: 32:37

There's a few organizations out there that are interested in active transportation, and I'm a huge fan of that because I think it's a vital element of being more healthy as a nation, of getting out and walking or riding or skateboarding or whatever you know, and being active is just so vital. And I think about Rails to Trails and you know this is the Great American Rail Trail is like one of those projects that are weaving together region after region after region across the US, region after region after region across the US. And when you talk about collaboration, it seems like there's a moment now where some of these cycling highways and other projects are almost demanding a collaborative approach. I'm wondering, as you look at that, is that something that helps you be optimistic about the future? What are your thoughts there?

Michael Payne: 33:43

In general, I am optimistic In general. I think that people are having fun riding their bikes, they're enjoying getting out there, they're seeing progress with respect to high comfort, low stress, places to ride. That is happening slowly, little by little, in a lot of communities around our country. It's not happening everywhere. I mean I say that sitting in Washington state, which is ranked number one out of all 50 states, right so? And I can also tell you there's a lot more to be done here in the Seattle and the Washington area and you could go riding here and you compare it to riding around you know, some sort of third tier city in rural Netherlands and it's, it's a lot more comfortable to ride there than it is here in our number one, you know most developed bicycle state, and and so you know we have a lot of work to do. But but I do think we're making progress. I think people are experiencing it. I think people are seeing it. They're seeing it on television, they're understanding it and they know that it's possible.

Michael Payne: 34:47

So I think the real key is to lean in and to unite, because as long as we just sort of remain fragmented as individuals not a member of our local advocacy group, not a member of our state or not a member of our federal. We're not a member of our state or not a member of our federal. We're actually not even being counted. We're not having an impact, we're not moving the needle, and that's right where you know the car the anti-bike people want us to be, you know, and most people who ride bicycles drive cars also, and they, you know, and they see the benefit of it. So I'm not saying I'm anti-car I certainly am not. I enjoy driving my car very much, but I do think it's important to unite as cyclists in order to get the representation that we deserve.

Tom Butler: 35:33

Now you've mentioned other countries a couple times and you had an opportunity to live in another country and in other regions and visit other regions a lot.

Michael Payne: 35:53

I wonder if you could talk about that opportunity and also talk about how that molded your perspective. Yeah, I was interested in bicycle advocacy before I had the opportunity to live abroad on a longer term basis. I studied abroad some, but I was able to live and work in the Netherlands. I've also lived in France for a year, I've lived in the UK for a year, I've lived in Panama and I've lived in Chile. There's no one way to live on this planet and there's no one right answer. But I can tell you, when you design your city around people rather than around cars, it makes it a very pleasant place to live.

Michael Payne: 36:29

As a person who is outside of their car at times and they've been able to do that in the Netherlands and they you know they put money into sidewalks. You know I've lived in places like Houston which actually don't have sidewalks in a lot of places. There's the road and then there's people's yards in certain areas and that's quite challenging and distracting. As a young parent pushing a baby carriage down the road, you know, worrying about cars going by. The attention to detail that's put into the infrastructure and the built environment in the Netherlands makes it a very safe place to walk and to bike and it makes it very pleasant. You don't hesitate to jump on your bike to run errands or to send your kids to school on their own from quite a young age and, as a result of that, people are riding throughout their entire lives. You know, the type 2 diabetes is much, much lower, the heart disease is much, much lower, the rates of obesity are much lower, and that has everything to do with creating a built environment where people feel comfortable getting out and moving around.

Tom Butler: 37:36

I had a conversation with Tom Babin a while ago on the podcast. I had a conversation with Tom Babin a while ago on the podcast and I think he made an observation that you know you can judge the health of the cycling infrastructure more by someone dressed to go to the market on their bike, rather than you know someone who's out for fitness activities. You know, like me, I'm willing to brave the roads a little bit, but but you kind of you know, I think culturally you see people dress differently in the Netherlands and you know their bikes are a little bit different.

Michael Payne: 38:16

Absolutely. Now, people are. People are comfortable cycling and whatever clothes they're comfortable wearing, and their bikes are designed to protect their clothing, with fenders and mud flaps and chain guards and with a nice upright geometry which makes them very comfortable for riding around. Now, obviously, they don't have the hills to climb in the same way that we do in some parts of our country, but they also do face their own set of challenges in terms of wind and rain and so forth.

Tom Butler: 38:48

Now you have an entrepreneurial mindset. I believe that is a fair thing to say. Looking at your history, I'm wondering if that influences the way that you think about bicycle advocacy.

Michael Payne: 39:12

I'm sure if that influences the way that you think about bicycle advocacy to the organizations I'm involved with keep a focus on where we get the right outcomes for our effort and our energy that we're putting into keeping our organizations alive and relevant. You know, for another hundred years if you will. And you know it's a combination of thinking about what are the outcomes that we need to achieve and how are we going to get them. And you know I'm a big believer in the skills and the tools that you are applied in entrepreneurial settings or that you may learn in business school and applying those to nonprofits and to government and to other all the ports of organizations where you know. From my point of view, thinking about marketing strategy is equally as important to a bicycle advocacy organization that it is to as it is to a fast-moving consumer bike infrastructure pitch meeting of like let's get really innovative.

Tom Butler: 40:31

Let's just really think out of the box, who can come up with some, you know, like really cool new ideas? It seems like that's kind of that energy of entrepreneurialism that could be infused.

Michael Payne: 40:45

I like it and, coincidentally so, my youngest child is a junior in high school and his school organizes these entrepreneurship competitions and invites kids from other schools to come and participate in them. Right, and I was a judge a few months ago in one of the competitions and I've been working with the staff on organizing the next competition and we're trying to do social entrepreneurship as far as this next round goes and have the kids work on some social entrepreneurship challenges as part of it, and I've pitched bicycle advocacy as one of the challenges that I would like them to put to the kids and see how the kids approach it. Right, but I like your idea of organizing a whole full blown innovation, bring you know competition, if you will, for the Seattle community to bring people together and I'm going to talk to Lee about how we can do that and mix it with some beer and make it into something fun, you know.

Tom Butler: 41:52

I like it. I'll be there, for sure, yeah it.

Michael Payne: 41:56

it's, it's a really good idea. I think it's the kind of thing that people would show up for and they'd be excited to come and brainstorm on and, quite frankly, probably generate a lot of good ideas as well.

Tom Butler: 42:09

So if you were going to think about, like, the current state of cycling infrastructure, are there some specific things that you would put at the top of a list of change items?

Michael Payne: 42:22

That's a big question when I think about the challenge of changing our built environment. If you assume for a moment that we have or environment in an area is, somebody does a plan, a bicycle master plan that is then shared with the people in all different parts of the communities, and you prioritize your improvements and you start rolling out your improvements in the infrastructure as you redo the roads, because that's the most cost-effective time to make those changes and roads don't get redone every day. So over a long period of time when you have the budget, you start with your highest priorities, your most dangerous areas, your backbone connecting pieces. You know that link things together and you begin implementing those gradually. So you know, one of the frustrating things about this space is that it takes a long time, even when things are going well, to see progress and to see change and it's just slow, long work because you don't always have a bicycle master plan to start off with and you don't always have a political environment that's supportive of cycling. A lot of times you have people that are fighting you and opponents and you have to work to demonstrate the need and the interest and convince people. Well, we should be spending any money at all on making these improvements, as opposed to just picking up the bodies and getting them throwing them in the van if people get injured or killed. Getting them throwing them in the van if people get injured or killed.

Michael Payne: 44:16

So you know, I guess I don't have one specific sort of type of bike path necessarily. I mean I do. I'm a big believer in planning and letting the planners do their work and figure out where people are trying to move, what's a safe and cost-effective way to accommodate them and where can we get early wins on the grid in the network that allow people to actually go places they want to go and not get stuck hanging in really dangerous areas that are confusing and not pleasant to experience. So building out the network is super important, not pleasant to experience. So you know, building out the network is super important. You know looking for ways to do it as quickly as possible. You know, if I could change things, you know it would be more top-down push of money on building complete streets and integrating bicycle-friendly infrastructure without debate wherever it can be done, as fast as possible. But, you know, starting with big arteries that allow people to move across the trickier parts, busier roads, bridges and things like that that are pinch points.

Tom Butler: 45:25

I like that. You know, and I think that observation is so valuable that streets aren't something that change every day. It has to be part of planning in order for years, planning years ahead in order to really be efficient with the process.

Michael Payne: 45:46

Yeah, and there is a limited amount of money. And one of the things that makes the United States difficult compared to Europe is density, and in the Netherlands in particular, it is a densely populated area. A third, I think a full third of the country lives in some sort of government-supported housing, which tend to be apartment buildings, relatively dense apartment buildings, apartment buildings, relatively dense apartment buildings. And that's very cost efficient. But it's also very planning efficient in terms of bicycle infrastructure and creating villages and towns where people can get to what they need on their bicycle, they can get to a train station, they can move to a different part of the country. And we, you know the scale and size of our country. Not only is it 20 times bigger in terms of population, you know, it's probably I don't know, I'm just going to guess 150 times bigger in terms of landmass, and probably a thousand times, for that matter, who knows? It's huge, it's huge and the distances are vast.

Tom Butler: 46:48

So it's a different set of challenges distances are vast, so it's a different set of challenges. Yeah, Do you think public transportation is vital to as far as cycling access? Do you see that in the Netherlands that the public transportation is essential link in cycling around?

Michael Payne: 47:04

I do, and and the reason I say that is you know, the Netherlands is a country of about 18 million people and the largest metropolitan areas really are about a million inhabitants. So Amsterdam, the Hague, rotterdam are the three largest cities, and those economies are built on a model whereby people will live in other villages and commuter suburbs. If you will commuter villages further away and the train system is actively used there, they will bike to the train station, jump on a train into the town where they have a job, work there, either walking or grabbing another bike. And if you go to the train stations now and they have massive, public, state-of-the-art bicycle parking garages underneath the train stations and they're spotless, they're painted, they're beautiful, and there are videos on YouTube.

Michael Payne: 48:04

If you Google, you know Utrecht train station or the Hague train station, you can see them and they're extremely impressive. But people have another bike there that they'll jump on and then they'll ride to their office and that's the way they structure their lives, so that they can move around quickly and easily. And it's you know. They also have loaner bikes at the train stations, where you buy your train ticket and you get a loaner bike. And if you don't, you know if you're going to a town where you don't, and if you're going to a town where you don't go very often, you manage it that way.

Tom Butler: 48:33

It's a lot of pieces to it, and so we do have a ways to go.

Michael Payne: 48:38

And we have a different model. We have a country that has grown up after the invention of the automobile, which is really not the way the Netherlands grew up.

Tom Butler: 48:51

I want to shift gears here. Talk a little bit about how cycling has enriched your life personally.

Michael Payne: 48:55

Like many people, I have enjoyed various aspects of cycling in different ways at different times. I enjoyed the adventure and exploration as a child, riding around the neighborhood. I enjoyed riding around campus, university. I enjoyed mountain bike racing, you know, as a young man, in early years and in the early days, of mountain biking. And I've also enjoyed, you know, group rides and participating in slow rides and going out in a critical mass ride and seeing different cities through the lens of critical mass and doing large, organized rides as well.

Michael Payne: 49:36

And you know I do a triathlon once a year just for fun, a small one, and enjoy that sort of personal challenge of seeing how my body is holding up over time, doing the same ride every year. And I think most importantly through all that is the companions that you ride with and the people that you get to know and the fact that you can have conversations while you ride and you talk. And you know I love the I lived in Houston for a period of time and hearing people talk about how cycling was becoming, you know, the new golf from a business perspective, because people could have meaningful conversations outside of sort of the structure of the office and talk about problems and get to know one another and decide to work together. And you know, they make things happen.

Tom Butler: 50:26

Change happens that way, you know there is an element of that that's really interesting to me. Secondly, being new golf, because you know, one thing that I found was you know when you're getting busy. You know when you get that point in your life and your career where you're getting busy and you're trying to grow your career and you're trying to show your value to a company. You know, I found that time to be very difficult because no one prioritized being active. It was like if you're sitting in front of your computer or going to meetings in a in a restaurant, meeting people in restaurants and attending meetings and all of that like that was stuff that was rewarding. There wasn't like an inherent reward in being active.

Michael Payne: 51:22

Yeah, no, it is a problem with our species in our country. I mean, our species was not designed to sit at a desk all day. It was designed to walk around doing stuff outdoors. And we have entered this phase in the last couple hundred years where we kind of sit on our rear ends, and it's not good.

Tom Butler: 51:41

How did you navigate that.

Michael Payne: 51:43

Well, I certainly experienced what you're describing. You know, on a professional level, finding times where you know, particularly as a young parent with young children at home, where you're working and struggling, you know, to get everything delivered and meet the objectives from a company perspective but then also rushing to your role as a father with limited time. You know for exercise and you know certainly the one good thing I can say is part of that time I was bicycle commuting, you know, to the office in the Netherlands, which helped a lot, and part of the time I was, you know, cycling in Atlanta or in Houston or other places. But I think you know. Looking back as an older person now, I guess I would certainly say when I speak to people younger in their careers, I make an effort to emphasize that they're not invincible, that their health actually should be a priority and that if they burn it too hard it's going to get them People. Many people run into health-related challenges which are tied to not getting enough rest, not getting enough exercise and having too much stress.

Tom Butler: 52:57

One of the messages I think of cycling over 60 is that if you're in your 50s, late 50s, early 60s even, but if you're in your mid-50s and your life has been that thing where parenting and career and everything has kept you from being active, it's not too late. You know it's like get on a bike now. You know, maybe your kids are out of the house now you have a little bit different responsibility there. Engage your kids. I've been so fortunate that my adult kids are, you know, joining me on cycling adventures. You'll benefit immensely. I mean, I'm just an example of someone who's benefited immensely by by getting out there and doing it.

Michael Payne: 53:43

I think it's great advice. It's definitely not too late. You know, I'm as I mentioned to you. I'm cycling with people 25 years older than I am who are doing great and it's inspirational. So what?

Tom Butler: 53:59

are your thoughts about that? Do you have every intention to keep cycling later on in life?

Michael Payne: 54:04

I do, I do. I feel like there are a couple of things that have struck me in my life that I look forward to continuing doing. You know, hiking is one, cycling is one, swimming and sea kayaking, quite frankly, is another sort of rhythmic activity which you know from early in my life, and I started off as a whitewater paddler and at a certain point I'm like I don't need this risk of killing myself quite anymore, as much anymore as I did when I started, for some reason. So I shifted over more to sea kayaking and it's another great sort of rhythmic outdoor activity that I think lends itself well to longevity.

Tom Butler: 54:46

Yeah, and we live in a place that's amazing. So, yeah, you told me you spent some time on the Olympic Discovery Trail last summer and I'm wondering if you could talk about that a bit, because I think that is such a unique resource out there for cycling.

Michael Payne: 55:01

Sure, well, you know you're asking about how cycling has impacted my life and one of the ways. One of my longtime cycling buddies gets a group of guys together once a year and we do some riding somewhere in different locations, we do some hiking and just catch up and have fun. I've been doing that for over 10 years and it's such a fun activity that I've sort of decided to start my own version of that by putting together a ride once a year. Last year I had a couple of buddies guys and girls come into town and join me for riding the section of the Olympic discovery trail out to uh La Push Rialto beach, both, and you know and and checked out the West coast of the peninsula and then cycle back and camped along the way, staying in the campgrounds and uh, carrying all our our own gear. And that was my first bike packing trip like that. Uh, it was a lot of fun. Looking forward to doing more of them.

Tom Butler: 56:12

It was a lot of fun. Looking forward to doing more of them.

Michael Payne: 56:15

How did you find the trail? Was it what you expected? Well, the way I describe it is. It ranged from sublime to suicidal. Unfortunately, there's still some gaps, tom, that need to be fixed in a few places there, but much of it is amazing. Much of it is on an old railway with a very moderate, you know, one to two percent grade, going through beautiful forests along the banks of Lake Crescent and parts of it were gravel and through the woods and a lot of it's amazing onto the highway, you know, where there are logging trucks and cars going 60 miles an hour and every now and then and not much shoulder, and every now and then the road narrows to a bridge where there's no shoulder. And if you happen to be on the bridge and there's two cars coming both directions, going at full speed, then that's a that's a real unpleasant situation to be in. Overall, it was great and I would recommend it, but you know the looking forward to them figuring out those gaps and hopefully they get the support they need from the local advocate advocacy community.

Tom Butler: 57:23

Right, it's one of those projects I think to really follow, cause it's it's such a unique environment, you know, and you're going through areas that are like in the rain shadow and areas that are rainforests, and it's an incredible resource.

Michael Payne: 57:41

You know, I would encourage people to go to the website and to check it out. The Olympic Discovery Trail I think it's org actually, you know is a group of hardworking people and I think they've been working on it for over 30 years now in terms of putting pieces together and linking it all together, in terms of testament to people's patience and persistence and the financial contributions to support from a wide range of people. It's a great example of how things happen, little by little, thanks to the hard work of a dedicated group.

Tom Butler: 58:12

Well, I'll put a link to the website there in the show notes. Michael, I appreciate so much. You know it was really short notice having you come on and thanks so much for taking the time to do this. And I just have really enjoyed this discussion and I enjoy working with you more in the area and seeing you more at different advocacy events.

Michael Payne: 58:38

Thank you, tom. It's been great fun and I'm glad we met and look forward to going for a ride sometime soon. And thanks for creating a platform for talking about advocacy in general, but also about the Cascade Bicycle Club and the League of American Bicyclists. Those are two organizations which I would encourage people to look more into, or your own local organization, wherever you may be in the world, and there are advocacy organizations in all different parts of the world, and if there's not, maybe you should think about starting one for those who out there find themselves in that situation.

Tom Butler: 59:11

Yeah, awesome advice. All right, talk to you later now.

Michael Payne: 59:14

Thank you very much.

Tom Butler: 59:24

It's hard to imagine someone listening to this podcast who isn't already a fan of cycling. So I know that I'm speaking to the choir when I'm talking about bicycle advocacy here. But talking to Michael caused me to ask the question of myself am I doing enough? Michael's observation of the number of bikes sold versus the number of people who are advocating for bike safety it really hit me. He shared that 20 million bicycles are sold in a year and 110 million people ride a bike yearly. What would happen if we somehow engaged those people to take action? Let's say we only engage 10% Seems like it would be really significant if that number of people were all sharing the same message.

Tom Butler: 1:00:01

I really like the idea of having the League of American Bicyclists as a sort of meeting point for cycling advocates across the nation. An individual membership to the league is only $50, and there is a senior level for just $35. That seems reasonable and I feel like I should try to get more involved with them. So I will keep you posted on what I learn about the organization along the way. I encourage all of you to find some way to get involved in advocacy. Of course, the first action is to get out there and ride. I hope that all of you are finding a lot of opportunities to just experience the joy of cycling. I think people seeing us having fun on a bike is an extremely positive message. So do something great for cycling by getting out and just having a blast. And remember age is just a gear change. Thank you.