Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 17,. A Bike Law Firm and I'm your host, tom Butler. I want to start out by inviting people again to join me on Thursdays at 3 pm Pacific time for something I'm calling Zwift Thursday. This is an opportunity to do virtual riding together and to chat on Zoom. I don't think I will continue to do the virtual ride at the same time when the hot weather hits here, but for the next few months I plan on being consistent with it. Of course you need to have Zwift, but also to do the ride you need to be a member of the Cycling Over 60 Zwift Club. You should be able to find the club by pulling up the Zwift Companion app and then searching for Cycling Over 60. Once in the club, look for the club events section and hit the plus symbol to signify that you want to attend the ride.

Tom Butler: 1:05

When the ride time comes on Thursday, start Zwift up a few minutes before 3 pm Pacific so that you can be set and ready at the starting line. You should be able to see the ride as soon as you log into Zwift, but I'm not sure how long before the ride. It starts showing up Most of the time I've gotten in about 15 minutes early and I see it then one up. Most of the time I've gotten in about 15 minutes early and I see it then. I've done a group ride now a few times by myself, which is good because I'm still trying to figure everything out, but I think I might be able to orchestrate the ride smoothly this Thursday, maybe Because I've only done the group rides alone. I'm not 100% sure what the group experience will be like. I do like the route a lot. It's called Coast to Coast and I think it's going to be good for a group experience. It took me about an hour at around one watt per kilogram, and that's the pace that I plan to typically go for the Zwift Thursday rides. The time estimate they give for two watts per kilogram is 50 minutes. I believe I have set up the ride in a way that if a group wants to go off the front, you can do so. I would like to see two different groups a slower group and a faster group. Now I'm not sure what all can be contested on the route. There is the Woodland Sprint, which I know can be tracked for the group, also Jarvis KOM, but there is the Jarvis Lap and the Jarvis Sprint and I'm not sure about those. I will open up a Zoom chat room during the ride. The best way to get the link to the Zoom is to email me. You can find my email in the show notes. Even if you aren't doing Zwift Thursday, feel free to pop in the Zoom and say hello or ask a question.

Tom Butler: 2:42

Last weekend I went to the bike swap that Cascade Bicycle Club puts on in Seattle and I loved it. The experience makes me want to travel around and see other bike swaps. I would really like to see how it compares to bike swaps in other areas. I'm curious if anyone listening knows what the biggest bike swap in the US is. I see that VeloSwap in Denver looks like a great expo. Also, if you go to liveandpeaceorg forward slash bike swap, you can find a bike swap that happened in 2024 in Palo Alto. That looks interesting and they mentioned that will happen again in 2025. I have to say I'm in love with the idea of attending a Live in Peace bike swap and it looks like I'm just barely in time to draw attention to what is claimed to be the East Coast's largest indoor bike swap and that looks like I'm just barely in time to draw attention to what is claimed to be the East Coast's largest indoor bike swap, and that's the 28th annual Stop, swap and Save. That is happening in Westminster, maryland. Go to stopswapandsavecom for information and I'll put all those links in the show notes.

Tom Butler: 3:42

I will wrap up this week's update with something I find interesting. I am now starting to push's update with something I find interesting. I am now starting to push more weight with my upper body workouts. That means that I'm feeling really fatigued after the workouts. One thing I've noticed, and that I hope continues, is that these hard lifting sessions really knock my blood glucose down. It is obvious that the lifting does more than riding for immediate utilization of glucose. I'm really curious what is going on that, even though my upper body doesn't seem as much muscle mass as what gets pushed when I'm cycling, there's something about the intensity that makes a difference in the glucose utilization. I'm really looking forward to finding someone to have a conversation with this, someone who knows a lot about energy utilization and exercise.

Tom Butler: 4:36

In my opinion, one of the more interesting organizations in my area is Washington Bike Law. This is a law firm that represents injured bicyclists statewide and also advocates for safer streets for people walking and rolling. I wanted to learn more about Bob Anderton, the founder of Washington Bike Law, and get his perspective from years in practice. I reached out and Bob agreed to come on the podcast. Here is our discussion. I'm joined today by bike law expert Bob Anderton. Thank you, bob, for being here.

Bob Anderton: 5:06

Thank you for having me.

Tom Butler: 5:08

It is a real pleasure to have you here. I am really anxious to get your perspective on a few areas of bicycle law, and let's start the conversation here. What are your earliest memories of the bicycle?

Bob Anderton: 5:21

Well, this isn't going to really translate, but I'm going to show you this photo that refreshes my recollection. This is me at three years old, with the bicycle that Santa brought me.

Tom Butler: 5:32

OK.

Bob Anderton: 5:34

And it had 20-inch wheels, which was, you know, traditional small bike size BMX before BMX existed. This is 1970. And they're solid plastic tires which, as I got a little bit older, I realized were kind of awful. And I have a vivid memory of going on a walk with my parents probably my dog and seeing that someone had thrown out back in the days of you could throw out whatever you wanted in the trash. Someone had thrown out back in the days, if you could throw out whatever you wanted in the trash, someone had thrown out another kid's bike but that one had, you know, real tires and wheels, although they were flat, and so we grabbed it out of somebody's trash, took it home and I learned how to patch tubes. I think we might have even patched the inside of the worn out tires, but it was way better than the plastic ones and I had that bike for longer than probably I should have.

Tom Butler: 6:36

That's fantastic. I love that, yeah. What a great find.

Bob Anderton: 6:41

Yeah, no, it was. I've been patching tubes ever since. Now, of course, I have some of those tubeless tires that supposedly don't get flats, and you know they do.

Tom Butler: 6:51

Okay, and then you stuck with cycling as you got older, and I'm wondering about that progression and I've always represented injured people.

Bob Anderton: 7:03

But I never had some kind of business model to be a bike lawyer, I mean, I'd never heard of such a thing.

Bob Anderton: 7:13

But before I started my own office, I worked, obviously, for other folks, and one of the people that I worked for only represented catastrophically injured clients, only represented catastrophically injured clients, and so it was a high level office where I kind of learned some of the tricks, I guess, or whatever. And then I also worked for an office that represented a lot of people and they were smaller cases and a lot of our clients were immigrants. And you know, honestly, I really enjoyed getting to know folks that were different from me and being able to make a difference in their lives. I mean, these were not big cases, but they were big to the clients and it really felt good. And you know, as years went by I think I had practiced for eight or nine years people started kind of naturally coming to me and I started thinking, oh gosh, maybe I could have my own office and I actually thought maybe I would represent kind of immigrant communities because I really liked it. But it turns out I'm not really in any immigrant communities.

Bob Anderton: 8:31

My grandmother came from Norway in 1929, but I don't really have that kind of connection and there are lots of folks that do. So that didn't happen. I mean, there were a few people, they were great. What I guess did happen is that I was a bike commuter and I started representing bike people and particularly bike messengers and the King County Superior Court Well, actually I think all of them I don't know that all the courts in Washington, that's not true.

Bob Anderton: 9:07

There are state courts that still require paper filing, but pretty much if you're an attorney you can't even file with paper. So that job kind of went away and so did those clients. Even though we don't have bike messengers anymore, more and more people are riding bikes, particularly in Seattle, where it's terrible to drive and unfortunately more and more people are driving dangerously, which is bad for me as a bike commuter and you as Tom or anyone listening. We want the roads to be safe, roads to be safe, but you know we've had, as a result, a lot of clients and the offices expanded to now where we have four lawyers and support staff where it was just me for a while.

Tom Butler: 9:53

What was the year that you started specializing, I guess is the right word in bike injury cases?

Bob Anderton: 10:01

Yeah, I'm going to go a little into the weeds here. Technically, in Washington we don't recognize specialties. So lawyers say all the time that they specialize, but you're not really supposed to say that. The one way to say it is that the practice is limited to. But it doesn't really sound that good. What I can say is that when I started my office I think in the year 2000, and it was called Anderton Law Office Legally it still is the Washington State Power Association at the time said you can call your office anything you want, as long as it's your name. And later they've changed the rules and they've said you can, you can really call it anything you want, as long as it's not misleading. At some point a few years in I decided to change the name, even though legally it's a. It's a DBA to Washington bike law and I think that's way cooler. You know what is Anderton? No one, you know. People are always fixing that spelling, but everybody knows Washington by claw it works.

Tom Butler: 11:13

Really, not too long after you opened your own practice, you knew that you were going to do by claw, or did it take a bit for that to develop?

Bob Anderton: 11:26

My wife was rather skeptical when I said I think I'm kind of want to change, change the name, and at that point I would say maybe about half of our clients were people who had been injured while riding bicycles and at this point that's. I mean, we represent people injured while walking or doing something kind of related to that, and we'll sometimes represent former clients who are in a car crash. But you know, it's probably in the high 90% range that our clients are bicycle-related. I don't know, a couple years after early 2000s I think, since we didn't legally change the name, I don't have an easy way to check.

Tom Butler: 12:15

Yeah, gotcha, there is a point. It seems like that there's not that many firms in the country that have that kind of emphasis.

Bob Anderton: 12:26

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 12:27

What's that like being the only bike lawyer you know, or one of I mean? Maybe at one time you were kind of seen as the only bike lawyer, or again I'm thinking there was a time when there wasn't very many, or again I'm thinking there was a time when there wasn't very many.

Bob Anderton: 12:44

Well, I would say that this area bike law is something that is continuing to grow throughout the country and there are lawyers who are, you know, bike people and people who are committed to making the streets safer, and that's great. There are also lawyers who just generally represent injured people, and they have figured out that bike people make good plaintiffs, and there are a couple of reasons for that. One is that most injury claims are related to car versus car crashes and a lot of times there's not a lot of visible damage to a car and sometimes people can be seriously injured even if the car doesn't look that way. But most people think, hmm, I don't know, right, and you know, are you faking this? Why did you do that? But no one ever says, you know, after somebody driving a big pickup runs down a person on a bicycle, like how could you possibly be hurt in that crash? It's like, oh my God, you're alive, you know. So there's that.

Bob Anderton: 13:55

There's also the fact that the people who tend to ride bikes like I know a little bit about your background as a way to become more healthy, bicyclists tend not to be malingerers and in terms of personal injury claims. That's something that insurance companies always like to accuse people like oh well, your client wasn't really hurt, they didn't really need this treatment and they didn't really want to get better, they just wanted to get a payout. And we I don't think I've heard that for a long time, because our people it's more like maybe you shouldn't go back on your bike right away, like, make sure that you're actually going to be okay to ride. We want to be active and so throughout the country, there are more firms that are seeking to represent people who've been injured on bikes, and you may know the statistics related to Vision Zero. I mean many places in Washington, in Seattle and throughout the country. We endorse this concept called Vision Zero the idea that there are no serious injuries or deaths on the streets by 2030.

Bob Anderton: 15:15

But the data is the opposite. Like more and more people are being seriously injured and killed, so there's more work to be done. Even today, insurance companies they're like Washington bike law, you just represent bicyclists. Is that even possible? I'm like yeah, or they'll say, okay, yeah, this is the bike case. Okay, do you have a name? Because they're kind of all that. So it's changed a bit over time, but it's, I don't know, it's good.

Tom Butler: 15:55

Are there common accidents that you see, or is it kind of all over the board?

Bob Anderton: 16:23

Let me back up and say we don't like the term accident, and there's when I say we, there's two sets of people who don't like the term accident. One is the people that want to have safe streets advocates for, like Vision Zero says, don't use that term. Accident assumes that it's inevitable, there's nothing you can do about it and it's just something that you accept. We've got to have the maximum vehicle throughput and some people are going to die and that's just how it is. Vision Zero was supposed to get around that. Also, plaintiff's lawyers like me. Before I had heard any of that when I was working for Tom Chambers, who was the firm that represented catastrophic injured people, he said like don't ever use that word because it means that nobody's at fault. So we say crash or collision and if you Google crash, not accident, there's a whole website dedicated to beating that out of people. But anyway, there are common types of crashes, whether you call them accidents and most people still say accident, it's fine. A lot of people call them like right hooks, left hooks, a right hook being where a driver passes you and immediately forgets that you ever existed and turns right in front of you, cutting you off. Often we see that with the bike lanes In Seattle we have a lot of people who want to be good people and they want to stay out of the bike lane and then they turn at the last minute and they cause the crash. It's actually OK to drive in a bike lane so long as you yield to people who are riding bikes there and you're really going to turn. It's not OK to stop in a bike lane because you're just going to drop something off or because you want to go around stuff, but you really should get in the bike lane before the last minute if you want to avoid accidentally cutting somebody off. I did say accidentally there, didn't I? So there's the right hook. The left hook is, you know, the oncoming vehicle that turns in front of you, and it's just. You know, the bicyclist came out of nowhere, oh gosh.

Bob Anderton: 18:48

And with that, for the most part, the law is the same. Whether you're riding a bike or driving a car. I mean you have to yield to if you're going to turn left, right. Rear ending is something that a lot of people are paranoid about, but it actually happens a lot less than I think you might think, but we get them Also side swipes, people that are driving and they forget about that. Their mirrors are sticking way out there, or they're towing a trailer and they're turning and it doesn't follow the exact same path and it hits somebody like that. And then something that we do at Washington Bike Law that not every bike lawyer or even personal injury lawyer does is we do take the unsafe infrastructure cases, which tend to be a lot harder because you're not just going to the driver's insurance company and saying, hey, let's make up for this harm.

Bob Anderton: 19:45

We are often trying to actually prevent future crashes in a place and we have some history with back in Seattle with there used to be hundreds, if not thousands, of sewer grates with big openings that could swallow, you know, a road bike's tire very easily and did If it goes all the way down to your forks. You're not going to go over that, you're going to go like that. For the most part, I think those have been eliminated. We still sometimes see them in parking lots and we always ask please get rid of these so that nobody else crashes there. And sometimes they actually do that and it makes me happy. And sometimes they're like who the hell are you? We do what we want. Other infrastructure cases we call them speed bumps. You see the sign speed bump, but Seattle does not have any speed bumps. On our public streets we have what are called speed tables or elevated crosswalks, which are the same degree of elevation but the transition happens slower and so people don't crash on their bikes. And we recently had a case that went to trial involving unsafe speed bump. Then that went up on appeal and it looks like after many, many, many, many, many years, that's actually going to get paid.

Bob Anderton: 21:21

Another, and probably the thing that we've worked on longest, has to do with the missing link of the Burke-Gilman Trail, which had been literally decades and trying to make the carnage stop. And, as you may or may not know, that area underneath the Ballard Bridge that you know, there are bike lanes on city streets. It's not part of the Burke Gilman Trail, but hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people have crashed there and finally those tracks have been paved over. And that happened because our clients, as part of their settlement, got the city to agree to improve it so that other people wouldn't suffer the same fate, and I really appreciate that. They did that. I think we all should, and I appreciate that the city has made those improvements. I mean I think people do want safer streets, whatever side they're on. Nobody wants to defend the claims and nobody wants to be injured, but sometimes it's hard to get that kind of outcome. It's rare, and so I'm especially proud that that has happened.

Tom Butler: 23:02

So those are the main kinds intersection, or you've got tracks that are running almost perpendicular to a road or whatever.

Bob Anderton: 23:14

I mean you hit that with a bike and that it doesn't really feel like an accident, that feels like you know a problem just waiting to happen right, and that's that is baked into vision zero that the people that that design the infrastructure should assume that not everyone is going to be perfectly attentive while they're driving, that people are going to make mistakes but those mistakes shouldn't result in serious injuries or death, which means we've got to change the kind of infrastructure. And it's tough in Seattle because we've got some crazy terrain to cover. I mean, how many six-way, seven-way intersections and over a hill and with bridges, and so I don't envy the job of the engineers that have to figure out how to do this safely, and we have seen a lot of improvements lately. But they're in one little place, so you might have this wonderful, super safe feeling infrastructure that disappears a block later and then you're like, okay, now what? So we've got a long way to go, but we're going in the right direction. You know, I'm happy that things are improving.

Tom Butler: 24:32

I'm interested in this aspect of you as an advocate. Uh-huh, you know, and I know that you support the Seattle Neighborhood Greenways, and that's an organization that looks to make movement around the city safer. You, you know, talked about that. You represent pedestrians, represent people in wheelchairs, a broader perspective of people that are moving in other ways than cars, and I'm wondering if there's a set of legal challenges that are shared when you're looking at pedestrians or people moving around a city in other than cars.

Bob Anderton: 25:17

Well, I guess the answer is yes.

Bob Anderton: 25:20

I mean, people that are outside of vehicles are much more vulnerable than than people who are inside.

Bob Anderton: 25:27

When I say vehicles, a bicycle is considered a vehicle in Washington, but it's not the same, as you know, a Hummer, for instance.

Bob Anderton: 25:36

You know, not only are we, the people outside of cars and trucks, more vulnerable to being seriously injured or killed in crashes, we have another disadvantage compared to people with cars and in cars and trucks, which is that when police come to investigate the crash, often they just assume that the bicyclist came out of nowhere, because oftentimes the bicyclist has already been taken away by ambulance and the driver's like it came out of nowhere, and that may be true from their perspective because they just looked up from their phone. But there's also another problem that people have, besides being more physically vulnerable, and it's the way the law works. If someone is claiming that a driver is responsible for their damages caused in a crash, they have the burden to prove that the driver was indeed responsible. But if somebody has a head injury or, worse, if they're killed, they're not going to be able to testify to what actually happened and, because they have the burden of proof, they may not be able to recover anything even from their own insurer.

Bob Anderton: 26:53

You know, if you have UIM on your car insurance, that means underinsured motorists or uninsured motorists. You have insurance for people that don't have insurance. A lot of people don't or don't have enough insurance, and it should protect you when you're riding around on your bike. But the legal theory is that the insurer stands in the shoes of the tortfeasor. So what that means in human being speak is that if the driver has a defense, your own insurance company can use it against you, and so your insurance company could say well, how do we know that the driver was negligent? What do you know? Nothing, and there were no witnesses. So you lose. So that's why another kind of outside representing individual clients, something that I've been doing besides that. That's a terrible sentence, but what I'm trying to say is I have been advocating for a law that would create a civil presumption of liability against drivers who are involved in crashes with people walking or rolling for a long time, I think since 2009 is when I really started trying to make this happen, and I'm super excited that this year 2025, we actually have a bill before the Washington State Legislature that I helped write that would actually do this. It's House Bill 1518, which was introduced by Representatives Julia Reed and Beth Dogglio, and it's actually set for a hearing tomorrow, which is February 5th, so we'll see where that goes.

Bob Anderton: 28:38

But if we were to pass a presumed liability law, it would protect the most vulnerable people on our streets in two major ways. The first way is that and this is what would be ideal it would motivate people that have the most power to prevent those crashes, to pay attention and to be safer. The second way is that if a crash does happen and frankly, they probably will still happen it would make these disputes over liability less likely, which means that claims should be resolved more quickly, and that means people might not even use a lawyer or need to have a lawyer a lawyer or need to have a lawyer and it could actually benefit not just people but insurance companies, because they would spend less money on litigation and could spend money on just compensating the people who were injured. I mean, I can say a whole bunch of things on this bill. I'm not sure how much you want.

Tom Butler: 29:47

How likely do you feel that it's going to go through? Do you have a sense of that? Do you feel like a lot of the things have already been argued over the years, or is there still a lot of stuff to try to educate or inform legislators about?

Bob Anderton: 30:05

Well, I'm doing my best to get the word out, but this is the first time that this has been in front of the Washington state legislature and, as far as I know, if this is passed into the law, it would be the first time in the United States. Now there are many countries across the world where it's much safer to be walking or riding a bike the world where it's much safer to be walking or riding a bike and those countries usually have either presumed liability or strict liability. With presumed liability, which is what we're talking about here, you would be able to rebut that presumption. It's not like the driver is automatically responsible. They're just presumed responsible and since they don't tend to lose their memory, they could prove that they weren't. With strict liability, it's just they're responsible. But those countries not only do they tend to have either strict or presumed liability, they also tend to have better infrastructure, have better infrastructure. So it's a little hard to prove causation. So I would like to say just look at the data. It's so clear, we just need to do this. But it isn't that clear because often these changes happen at the same time or it's been the law for so long. It's just hard to nail down the data I've tried.

Bob Anderton: 31:39

The flip side is that I think tomorrow we're going to hear a lot of speculation about what this would do, including that it's a war on cars. I'm probably afraid, as you've heard before, it isn't, and we actually drafted this bill to include a presumption against bicyclists who are involved in collisions with people walking. Frankly, I don't think that's really needed. It happens a whole lot less often and people tend not to be as seriously injured. But because that tends to be the first line of defense parking maybe by me the first how will this reduce free parking for cars?

Bob Anderton: 32:26

And then the other one is it's a war on cars and it's neither. It's really something that it will make our streets safer and our legal system fairer, and I really hope that we can pass it this year. But if we don't, you know I've been at it for a long time I will keep pushing it. Ultimately, I think that if we have the law and people know about the law, it really will reduce the number of serious injuries and deaths, and then I can retire. I've done this for over three decades. I'm ready. It's fine.

Tom Butler: 33:10

As you're talking about it. There's something that's come to my mind, and maybe this is a hard question to answer. I don't know, but do you feel like, when you're out there talking to different types of people, whether it be drivers or city officials or law enforcement or whatever drivers or city officials or law enforcement or whatever that there's an? Element that people in the US think well, streets are for cars?

Bob Anderton: 33:40

Oh for sure, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there is a great book by Peter Norton which I have in the other room because I can't remember the title, but it really really changed my thinking about it. It's really a historical overview of the introduction the mass-produced automobile in the United States and how it completely changed what streets were for. I mean, you may have heard, hey, kid, go play in the street, and that's a joke now, but before the Model T that was not a joke. The streets were a public area that people would gather and walk freely wherever the heck they wanted to walk, because you could hear the horses coming and they're coming at like eight miles an hour. You just move over. But when cars would race around the corner upwards of 30 miles an hour, there was carnage in the street and there was a huge backlash against cars. They were talking about limiting speeds, prohibiting them entirely in urban areas. This led to the formation of the American Automobile Association, which actually came up with the phrase jaywalkers and I did not know this, but at the time a jay was pejorative, it was like a hick, a country bumpkin, somebody who didn't know how to act. Jaywalkers were people that just crossed in the middle of the street and so they were blamed for being run down. So yeah, there's definitely that idea here, but it's also been like that in places like Amsterdam or Copenhagen in the 1960s and they changed. We can change.

Bob Anderton: 35:28

Not everybody has to ride a bike. I ride an e-bike often because I'm getting older and my knees don't always work so well. But even if you have balance problems, they're trikes and heck. Everybody walks. Everyone benefits from a more pedestrianized environment. Nobody likes having a street dominated by cars, but everybody likes to be able to go up with the rock star parking and drop their car off and go right in.

Bob Anderton: 36:03

I recently saw an illustration about why our perceptions are so weird and I don't know if I can describe it. But basically, if you go to a shopping mall, there's lots of parking right, there's acres of parking, but actually you might park what is the equivalent of a couple blocks away. It just doesn't feel like it because you can see you're going to Sears or whatever's left in those places. You're going to Sears or whatever's left in those places, and whereas if you got to walk a couple blocks downtown you think what's going on? This is an outrage. But yeah, no, there's lots of.

Bob Anderton: 36:40

I've got a lot of different fun reading related to street use and parking. That's not really part of my practice, right, but it's definitely something that I've come to appreciate that we do look at this in a way that we think is self-serving. Like I want to have free parking. I don't want to pay for parking Some of these, you know, I'm not going to pay $40 or something to park in a parking garage. I don't want to pay for parking. I'm not going to pay $40 or something to park in a parking garage. I'm just going to keep going around the block until I find the free parking.

Bob Anderton: 37:15

There was some kind of study I don't know the exact findings, but it was a significant percentage of downtown motor vehicle traffic is people looking for free parking. So, and you know, now in Seattle we have variable pricing based on demand, which is probably smart, right, I mean the idea even if you are charged what seems like a significant amount for street parking, it still undervalues what the land is worth and there are alternative uses that could be better. But then you know we need to have a way for people to get around. Not everybody's going to ride a bike, so you know we got to have safe and effective places to walk, to bike, mass transit, and then you don't need your car until people are going to do whatever's easiest, and I find that it's easiest for me to ride a bike.

Bob Anderton: 38:11

I mean, I'm here in downtown Seattle, I live in West Seattle. My commute has some wonderful parts along beautiful water and some terrifying parts where I've literally seen people killed, and it's getting better all the time. I'm glad to be here now, but yeah, we I don't even know what the question was at this point, but it's, it's streets. Streets are weird. People in the United States do have a, I think, an incomplete view of the history of streets and I think we tend to undervalue the human component. And it's just like this war on car rhetoric. It's like isn't the goal to get people around safely, not to provide subsidized private vehicle parking everywhere, because that gets in the way also? So, but you know, I could rant on and on about that.

Tom Butler: 39:19

So let's let's you know, I have to be, you know, open with myself. I have to be real to myself. You know, open with myself. I have to be real to myself.

Tom Butler: 39:32

You know I, my perspective, has really opened up since my daughter and my son-in-law moved to Seattle and they are a one car family or one car couple. And just having them educate me on, dad, you know, take the light rail, throw your bike on the light rail and you don't need to come into town with your car. And uh, cause I would come into Seattle and I would be looking for parking and driving around looking for parking and you know, I just have to admit that it's tough to get out of that perspective.

Bob Anderton: 40:05

You almost need to have and I don't mean to shame people who do that. I mean I do it too right. I mean we all do it right. Nobody wants to pay for it, everyone wants it to be easy. But this goes back to, like the, the duty to build safe infrastructure. You need to build stuff that works for people. People are going to do whatever's easiest for them, and if it's easiest to drive, people are going to drive if they can. I mean, and you know, some people will sacrifice and you know, take the train with your bike and then transfer to the boss and do this whole thing. But you know, if they can drive and have free parking, ain't no way they're going to do that.

Bob Anderton: 40:47

We've got to do better because ultimately, as we have increased density, it doesn't matter if your car is electric or if it burns coal you are using at any time, and so if you want a city that functions, you really got to have fewer cars. And we're seeing that in places like Oslo, norway, where a few years ago we went to visit family and we found a hotel online and we didn't realize that it was right on the edge of where there's no car. So one side of when we left the hotel. It was great. It was a car-free part of the city, but on the other side it's the belt line that goes around. So our hotel was like terrible. You know, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, car, because people drive there too, but they just don't drive in the city, because they've made the policy decisions to build a city up for people, not for cars, and I hope we'll see more of that here.

Tom Butler: 42:21

And we are, but it's slower than I'd like change, whether it be kind of the legal landscape. You know, like this, this bill that you're advocating for and you helped author, you know the shifting mindset of the city even do you think Washington is in a place, seattle's in a place to, to maybe lead the way with some of this change?

Bob Anderton: 42:46

I hope we are. I mean, I think it remains to be seen, with this presumed civil liability law, whether that's going to get passed this year. We've got budget issues that people I think are primarily focused on, and in the city, you know, I think we have an increasingly conservative city council and mayor, and this may come as a surprise to those of us who do ride bikes regularly. Washington is one of the best places in the country to ride a bike and there are some crazy drivers out there who are yelling and screaming at you and seemingly intentionally trying to run you down or at least scare you, but it's a lot fewer than other parts of the country. So it's a little bit depressing, honestly to answer your question that yes, we are leaders, because I think we're still not where we ought to be, but I do think we are improving in lots of different areas and more and more people you know are willing to try riding, walking. I think there's still a reduction in the mass transit use since the pandemic and unfortunately, people are still driving like they're the only ones on the road Not everybody, but you see them, right, I mean. So, yeah, it's kind of a lot of people who just don't see it.

Bob Anderton: 44:31

It's not on the map. I mean, there's a lot of stuff going on. It's not on a lot of people's maps. It doesn't mean they're bad people, but it's hard to like your question about how streets are used. I mean, I was doing this for at least 20 years before I read the book and was like, oh my God, it's true. I mean, look at the street, like most streets, like half of it is dedicated to parking, like it's an incredible amount of resources that are used to store private cars that are not even being used, and we could allocate those resources differently, but we choose not to, and it's not even that we choose not to.

Bob Anderton: 45:16

It's just not on the map, and so it'd be good to put it on the map, even if you don't want to pay those exorbitant private parking rates, which is why we need better transit, we need safer infrastructure for walking and biking, and then you feel safer. There's a lot of folks that don't feel safe riding a bike today. I mean, I'll tell you, a couple of years ago I got rid of my road bike, and that's not to say that you can't safely ride a road bike, but so many times I, you know, get stuck in a little groove between pavement parts with my little 23 millimeter tires and it's a little scary. You know I switched to a gravel bike even though I made fun of them at first, and you know it's nice to have bigger tires, low rolling resistance. It feels a lot, a lot safer.

Tom Butler: 46:12

Now your firm has been recognized by the League of American Bicyclists and also Cascade Bicycle Club, and can you talk about that, about that recognition and what that's about?

Bob Anderton: 46:25

The League of American Bicyclists is the, I think, the oldest bicycle related organization in the, certainly in the country, and Washington Bike Law was the first law office recognized as a. I think what are we called A bike? Somewhere? I have a something bike friendly business back in 2009. Since then, we continue to get the recognition. We are now up to platinum level, which is the highest level that they can give. It's higher than the city of Seattle or the state of Washington, not that it's a competition.

Bob Anderton: 47:03

In 2013, washington Bike Law was the first organization any organization, law office or otherwise to be recognized by Cascade, mostly because I knew they were going to do it and I was like, oh yeah, well, we'll do that. They're not doing that anymore. So it was kind of one and done. But we still have this kind of blue glass thing says we're that you know it's great to be recognized. Were that you know it's great to be recognized. But I think, more importantly, the people at Washington Bike Law really are committed to making our streets safer for everyone and you know we're tenacious. We're keeping at this because we care about our clients and the bigger picture. So if we get recognition, that's cool. Thank you, I mean I'll put it on the wall. You probably saw it on the website. We're going to put it out there and it's nice to have someone else say, yeah, you do what you say you do, but we got that because we do it.

Tom Butler: 48:08

And we're going to keep doing it, whether we get it or not. Well, I'm not looking for specific legal advice, but I'm wondering can you talk about, like, maybe, typical stages or typical flow or something involving the stages or the progression or whatever of a bicycle incident progression or whatever of a bicycle incident? Are there things that cyclists should do to effectively communicate with their attorney? What are some of the things you think about in the progression of things?

Bob Anderton: 48:37

Sure, well, I think when you originally put this together, you were talking about a lawsuit, and one thing that I want people often kind of refer to an injury claim as a lawsuit, but actually most claims never result in a lawsuit. It's negotiations with an insurance company, and if a claim can't be settled with the insurance company, then the insurance company is going to appoint a lawyer to represent the person accused of being responsible for the crash and then they would pay any verdict up to the policy limits of that person's insurance. Because of this, usually the first thing that happens after a crash is that the driver's insurance company is going to try to get a hold of the other person involved and lock them into a set of facts. They want to take a recorded statement and that might be your own insurance company if it's a UIM or uninsured or underinsured motorist claim and you do have a duty to cooperate with your own insurance company.

Bob Anderton: 49:50

But if your own insurance company, and especially the other person's insurance company, can use what you say against you, they're definitely going to do it. So I mean, I guess, fundamentally it's important to tell the truth, but even more than that, it's better not to give a statement until you're mentally able to do this, and we would usually recommend that you talk with a lawyer. I mean, that's sort of the standard lawyer advice is talk to a lawyer. Surprise, but you know a lot of people don't. But the problem with giving a recorded statement is that if your claim isn't settled and you file a lawsuit, then what happens you were asking about the steps in a lawsuit is a discovery, which is the formal exchange of information, and discovery includes depositions, where you have questions asked of you under oath.

Bob Anderton: 50:44

But if you already have a recorded statement, then they kind of have what we call two bites at the apple. They have more opportunities to catch you in some kind of inconsistency. Which is why the first thing I said was the most important thing is to tell the truth. That's kind of the step. One is that statement, I guess. The other thing is often insurance companies try to settle claims quickly and one thing I'm not sure how widely distributed you are. The statute of limitations is the legal period in which somebody has to settle a case or they have to file a lawsuit, after which they don't have any rights right, and that time period varies in different states. In Washington, though, if someone is accused of negligently causing a crash, you have up to three years to settle a case or file a lawsuit, so it's a lot of time, and I think a lot of people don't know that.

Bob Anderton: 51:46

And insurance companies kind of pressure them into some kind of lowball settlement and they might say well, we'll pay up to a certain amount if you need these medical bills. And I think if you take anything away from what I'm saying now, it is especially if you're not going to use a lawyer, you're going to try to settle your case on your own. A lawyer, if you're going to try to settle your case on your own, don't do it right away. Make sure that you're really back to where you were before the crash, before you settle, because you're not going to get the full value from the insurance company and once you settle it's over. So I guess that's helpful for people who are not represented. And then I think you also asked about how should people communicate if they do have a lawyer. And one thing that I know I always get kind of weirded out when I know that a professional is charging me a lot of money and I want to kind of like get her done. Pretty much anybody who represents that is, any lawyer who represents injured people does so on a contingency fee. So the lawyer would take a percentage of whatever they get you. That varies a little bit, but it's fairly standard as opposed to an hourly fee. And people should remember that if you get a lawyer, make them earn their keep. They want to get you the most money because that's how they get the highest fee. You want to get the most money.

Bob Anderton: 53:20

So talk to them. If you have questions, ask. If you get something in the mail or an email and it's referencing this crash, don't respond to it yourself. Send it to the lawyer. Ask what is this? Should I respond? We tell people this and yet they respond all the time on their own. It's like, oh, don't do that, everybody to do that.

Bob Anderton: 53:52

So, and I guess if I could blow my own horn, as it were, there are lots of different sort of types of law firms. There are sort of the general practice firm, which knows a little bit about everything and will do whatever, and there's also firms that only represent injured people. They're going to know the answer to most of the kind of questions that you might have. And then there are offices besides Washington Bike Law, but Washington Bike Law is one of them that this is what we do. We represent injured people, from bike crashes mostly, and sometimes walking. We see the same stuff over and over again, so I'm not claiming to be the smartest person in the world, but once you've seen something enough, you probably know where to go and, hopefully, how to get there in the best way.

Bob Anderton: 54:37

I guess this doesn't really answer how do you effectively communicate with your lawyer? But more like, how do you choose someone to represent you? So, besides that general rule, you want somebody that you feel comfortable with, because sometimes these things will drag on longer than you could possibly imagine. I mean, I just got an email from a client. She's like yeah, you know, we've been working on this for over five years. If somebody makes you nauseous to even hear their name, like, maybe that's not who you should work with.

Tom Butler: 55:09

You have a lot of experience, like you've said. You've seen a lot of things, and what are the most important safety precautions that cyclists should take to minimize the risk of accidents?

Bob Anderton: 55:21

This is a great question, thank you. You know, I think I mentioned that I used to regularly represent bike messengers and you know kind of punk rock kind of folks, and it seemed like most of them had this mindset that drivers wanted to hit them and so their response was Assume that they were invisible and just avoid it, pay a lot of attention. And a lot of them also really took steps to be invisible wearing all black and taking off their reflectors. So I think it's both it's probably better to be aware and visible. But in terms of what specific steps somebody can take to avoid getting hit by so many of the inattentive drivers out there, I have a specific recommendation and that is a helmet light and particularly in the winter, when it's dark here in the Pacific Northwest and that's to be honest, I don't, it feels too dorky to wear it in the summer. So I have a winter helmet, but this thing and I have some fancy schmancy bike one. But my sister, who's a nurse, she got one on Amazon for like six bucks or something and it basically does the same thing. It's visible in the back, so cars see you, but more importantly in the front and what this does, and it's not required right Legally, to ride it during the hours of darkness in Washington, you need a front headlight and you need a rear reflector.

Bob Anderton: 57:04

You don't even need a rear light. That's not to say you shouldn't have a rear light you should, but legally you don't have to have it. You definitely don't need to have a helmet light. But what a helmet light does is when you turn right, you have light where you're looking. So it's helpful when you're going around a corner or something like that.

Bob Anderton: 57:24

But, more importantly, you can look at drivers and you can see if they're looking at you and I'm here to tell you they're not Right. And suddenly they're like, what the hell is that light? And they look up and they don't hit you. I mean I can't tell you how many times I feel like this has saved me and it's it's great. You shouldn't, we shouldn't have to do this, but it's helpful beyond preventing an inattentive driver hitting you. It's just helpful to see like you can hit a pothole, you can run off the road. I mean there's no reason not to do this, especially because you can get them. Get them them cheap. So I think that's a little bit different than the usual. You know, don't wear black and and all the things that you hear um.

Tom Butler: 58:17

So that's I like that. I mean, it's such a practical thing and, again, like like you said, you've experienced it yeah it, it feels so much safer.

Bob Anderton: 58:29

At some point in the last few weeks I got a bunch of helmets and I realized I had on a helmet that didn't have a light and I had a harder time seeing and I felt I look at drivers, I'm telling you that here that you can't see on a podcast, but you know, I give them the stink eye but and there's no response and it's because my headlights not on. So yeah, that's cheap and easy way to to be a lot safer.

Tom Butler: 58:59

Do you have any bike adventures planned for the future?

Bob Anderton: 59:03

You know I think I mentioned that I kind of consider myself a utilitarian bicyclist. So you know I have lots of aspirations of mountain biking and gravel biking and doing these things, but the truth of the matter is pretty much never happens. So I would say that my adventures are getting to and from work, and that's quite an adventure really. So it's just, that's my, that's the plan, just keep, keep riding. It's, it's, it's easy, it's the most efficient way for me. It and it has kept me relatively fit, even though that's pretty much all I do. And that's, that's a good.

Tom Butler: 59:45

Well, and your commute is beautiful. I mean, if people don't know the Seattle area, I mean what you're talking about as far as what you're riding there's, you know, it's really beautiful and you get to see Mount Rainier probably a lot during your commute, and the sound and everything. So you could find a lot of places that weren't as picturesque as as that commute.

Bob Anderton: 1:00:11

For sure. Also, alki was one of the first parking protected bike lanes in the country.

Tom Butler: 1:00:17

Okay.

Bob Anderton: 1:00:18

Most of it doesn't have it, but we, uh, I guess that would be South at the end of the beach there's a parking protected portion, so yeah it's it's great and it's also terrible in places.

Tom Butler: 1:00:34

Bob, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I found it to be awesome, I found it to be valuable. Really, you know, the perspective that you have because of what you've done for years is, I believe, just a really unique perspective and I really appreciate you sharing that with the podcast listeners here.

Bob Anderton: 1:00:53

Well, thank you, it's been fun.

Tom Butler: 1:00:55

Fantastic. Talk to you later. All right, I am thrilled that I got to share that conversation on the podcast. Bob has had such an interesting view of the changing cycling landscape over the years. If Washington is there to be an example for other states to follow in creating excellent cycling conditions, it's because there are a lot of people like Bob who contribute to this being a unique place to ride. There are a lot of people like Bob who contribute to this being a unique place to ride, and I was able to do my part this week by participating in bike legislation lobbying activities in Olympia. This was my first exposure to engaging in grassroots advocacy for bike safety. I was thrilled to learn more about the process and I'm sure I'll do more of it in the future.

Tom Butler: 1:01:43

Bob mentioned a book on the history of roads and cars. I will put a link in the show notes to the book. It's called Fighting Traffic the Dawn of the Motor Age in the American City, and it's by Peter Norton. I plan to dive into it soon. I have about a week and a half now to get ready for this year's first group ride. I have to say I'm feeling nervous about being ready Now, whether you are training for a specific ride or not. I hope next week brings you whatever you seek as a cyclist, and remember, age is just a gear change.