Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode 14, second Cycle Community Bike Hub, and I'm your host, tom Butler. I'm very excited for this episode because at the end of this week's interview, I'll make an announcement of something new that I believe is a huge step forward for Cycling Over 60. I want Cycling Over 60 to not just be a worthwhile podcast, but also a broader resource for people who want to get and stay healthy later in life. I'm taking the first step to do more, so make sure and stay tuned for the announcement. Something else that is new is a different way of interacting with me. I use a company called Buzzsprout for managing several aspects of the podcast delivery. I'm going to start using a feature that Buzzsprout calls fan mail. What that means is that each episode description will have a link at the top. If you are listening on your phone, which represents about 90% of you. Clicking on that link will allow you to easily send a text message to me. I like the optimism of Buzzsprout calling this service fan mail. Hopefully, messages I get will be about things you like, but for sure I would love to hear suggestions of things that I could do better. Overall, I hope fan mail enables listeners to feel like you have a role in shaping the future of the podcast.

Tom Butler: 1:23

I'm happy to announce that I made my goal of doing upper body strength training twice last week. Feels really good to be able to share that with you, and I'm hopeful that this is the beginning of a long streak of consecutive two times a week of strength training. The workouts this week were with very light weights. I believe that it is important for me to ramp up solely to strengthen all the small support muscles that get engaged in my weight lifting. I felt really good after these two workouts and I see that as a good sign. I will do two more sessions with light weights and then start adding weight slowly. So I was able to get past my first hurdle of hitting my goal of two upper body workouts per week. But, more importantly, I've taken the first step in establishing a new habit. Healthy habit change is something that I feel is extremely important.

Tom Butler: 2:07

I will mention two books again that are forming my understanding of how to change. One is Atomic Habits and the second book is titled how to Change. Based on what I'm learning from these two books, I have set up a reward system and also an accountability system. I called in some help from our friends Jesse and Brenda to make sure the incentive was high. I proposed that I set a target for consecutive weeks that I meet my workout goal. If I make that target, jesse and Brenda will go on some sort of outing together with Kelly and me to celebrate. They agreed we set a target of 24 consecutive weeks. As Brenda pointed out, this is a double incentive. First, it gives me something to work for. Secondly, since they want the outing to happen, it is an extra incentive for Brenda and Jesse to cheer me on.

Tom Butler: 3:03

My son-in-law, garen, has the same bike. He recently realized that the bushings in his rear derailleur pulley were sticky. I'm guessing that I could experience the same issue with my pulleys as well. Talking to Brett from the bike hub, that issue doesn't create a whole lot of drag in the drivetrain and Brett said that it is easily fixed by disassembling the pulley wheels and taking some sandpaper to the bushings, then reassemble it with some high quality grease. But there's apparently another option. That is, to replace the 105 pulleys with something that has sealed bearings. Now I could go out and get $250 ceramic bearing pulley wheels, but that isn't going to happen. However, I can pick up a pair of Shimano Dura-Ace pulley wheels for around $30. I could go with Shimano El Tigra, but at only $30, I think even a small upgrade of Dura-Ace construction is worth it. The Dura-Ace pulleys have sealed bearings instead of bushings and I think might be better for our wet conditions here. Now I can't imagine I will ever feel a difference if I make this switch, so it'll have to be based on a theoretical decision. I still need to double check that the polling wills are interchangeable, but if so, I think I will make the switch.

Tom Butler: 4:10

A final note for this update next month I'm going to be attending Bike Lobby Day in Olympia, washington. It is described as an opportunity for community members to educate legislators on the real local impacts of investing in safer streets and passing policies to stem the transportation safety crisis. I've never done any lobbying, so it's going to be interesting to see how this process works. If any of you have any experience with this or have some suggestions, please use the new fan mail feature and send me a text. Between now and then I will share conversations with people as I gather information on how to be an effective voice.

Tom Butler: 4:46

During the bike lobby days, I introduced John Butler from Second Cycle in Tacoma, washington, on the December 2nd Cranksgiving episode, I didn't get a chance to have him talk much about his cycling experiences and the work that they are doing at Second Cycle, so John and I need to come back on to share more about Second Cycle. After the time we talked about Cranksgiving, john and I sat down together for a conversation that has led to something I'm truly excited about. We'll wrap up the interview with an announcement about this development. Here is our discussion. I am joined today by someone who has become one of my favorite leaders in the local cycling scene. Thank you, john Butler, for joining me today.

John Butler: 5:35

Yeah, I'm really pumped to be here. Tom, thanks for having me on. Yeah, excited to kind of like be on a podcast. I don't get to do this too often, but yeah, just really excited to share my experience.

Tom Butler: 5:48

Nice. I've mentioned before that, as far as we know, john and I are not related, but I've also said that I would gladly claim him, and that's true. I would gladly claim you, john, and I love what you're doing as deputy director at Second Cycle in Tacoma, washington. We're going to get into talking about Second Cycle here, but first what are some of the earliest memories you have of biking?

John Butler: 6:12

So I kind of like came into biking in a very interesting way. Where I grew up there wasn't a lot of like concrete and actually like flat spaces that felt good to bike on as a kid. So I definitely remember that I was like, okay, there's like the driveway, the driveway is like 30 feet long and then that's kind of it. But what I did do was ride dirt bikes a lot. So I grew up on like a horse farm and rode dirt bikes a ton. I actually knew how to like ride a dirt bike before I knew how to ride a bicycle, so that was kind of like coming into it. And then I really didn't get into what I would call like cycling and biking until kind of early high school Started riding with a bunch. I started just going to the mountain bike park with a bunch of my friends after high school. Like I remember I really pressured my parents one year I was like, oh Christmas, I really want a mountain bike. At that time I was like, oh Christmas, I really want a mountain bike.

John Butler: 7:06

At that time I was road racing motorcycles so I wanted to like have a way to cross train for motorcycle racing and I was like everyone's got mountain bikes.

John Butler: 7:13

I want to get fit, I want to get a mountain bike and my parents bought me like a giant Boulder SE from Sunshine Cycles in Watkinsville and I like just wore that thing out and I did it through riding with a bunch of my friends.

John Butler: 7:26

They either got mountain bikes around that same time or had mountain bikes, and then it was just like nine of us after high school we would drive directly and recklessly to the mountain bike park and then just rip laps on these like $400 mountain bikes and just get wrapped around trees and get so hurt, just taking it more serious every time and like that ski jump of just like being really excited about something and going from being like okay, I'm not that good at it to learning a lot and getting like substantially better every time you ride.

John Butler: 8:02

I just loved it better every time you ride. I just loved it. And then doing it with a bunch of friends was 100 when I like look at my most cherished moments in cycling. It was like those moments of riding where it was like, oh, just doing one lap was like all right, we did it. I did that whole lap without walking at all, you know, and it's like the bar was so low. Uh, that was like some of my earliest memories with you know what part of the country are we talking about?

John Butler: 8:29

yeah, so I'm originally from athens, georgia. Um, I grew up outside of athens for the most part, and then that was specifically heritage park, which is still like some of my favorite trails back home from the southeast prior to moving out to the Pacific Northwest.

Tom Butler: 8:47

Now, at some point you got interested in bike racing. How did that come about?

John Butler: 8:52

Yeah. So as we did the ski jump of getting more and more serious, we obviously asked, like aspiring 14 and 15 year olds, I was also racing motorcycles at this time. So it was like my parents were apprehensive about getting me a road bike but at the same time I was racing bikes that went like 130 miles an hour on a racetrack, Like. So that was very interesting thing, and so mountain biking was like the back way of getting into cycling for me. And then my friends were like, okay, let's get into mountain bike racing. So we all signed up for a mountain bike race and did it and then we kind of just kept getting more serious and then less of us started riding in the group and then it kind of came down to me and, like a couple other friends that were taking it seriously, that coincided with getting really injured motorcycle racing that year. So I had a big crash. My mom got, you know, all worried and pretty much I saw cycling as a way to keep racing and a way to do things in a more individual approach, because I realized in motorcycle racing that oftentimes your success was reliant on the size of your parents paycheck and that coincided with your opportunity, and so it was like, regardless of how hard you work, you were sort of limited by these like factors of access and I saw cycling as the way. I was like, well, the bike's way cheaper, the prep is all on me, I don't need my dad and my brother to rebuild the motor and to like drive me four hours to go to a racetrack, I can just like get on my bike at home. And so pretty much my peak in interest happened that year. I got hurt and I was coming back rehabbing a knee, did a lot of road or was doing a lot of like indoor cycling and was kind of like I really want to get into like outdoor road riding. And my neighbor at the time had an old touring bike and that was just sitting in the barn. He was like I know your parents won't buy your road bike If you, you know, I'll just give you this bike and then you can have a road bike. And I was like sick, all right, slap some tires on it. Parents didn't care. And then I just started doing Athens group rides and like, honestly, road riding was pretty boring. And then I did the social aspect and I started doing group rides and I remember I signed up for like Athens Twilight.

John Butler: 11:20

The year after I watched the pro race of that. Like I had a spring of doing a bunch of like rehab and like short road rides and I started doing like easier group rides. And then I watched twilight, which is like one of the largest spectated crits in the U? S and it's like my hometown race and I watched it one year and it was kind of like it was just a reflex moment of like, okay, this is like the next thing I'm gonna do. And before I had done the same thing with motorcycle racing.

John Butler: 11:49

Like what got me into motorcycle racing is I worked at a motorcycle shop. They gave us training videos to go watch. One of them was faster, which was like a Ewan McGregor documentary about motorcycle racing. I watched the intro scene with my dad and my brother and my brother also worked at the motorcycle shop and like by the intro end of the intro sequence it just like clicked in my head and I was like, okay, that's what I'm going to do and I'm literally that's like what I'm going to commit myself to. And I did that with motorcycle racing up to the point. And I started racing motorcycles when I was like 11, did that to like 17, 18. And then I had that same moment like watching twilight with all my mountain bike friends and just being like you know what? I got a road bike. Like I know how to. I know how to do this. I race motorcycles. I'm like I can do this. And then I just started like, all right, now I'm gonna be a road racer and so that's where, like my interest.

Tom Butler: 12:47

You sound like you were a competitor. You know, when you're watching the intro and you're like, and that like clicks with you. It sounds like somebody who's like a born competitor. Was that something that was in your family?

John Butler: 13:02

Yeah, I definitely think it's really interesting. My parents never pushed us to do anything and simultaneously, like I'm the youngest, so I'm the baby, baby John, and we didn't have a lot of pressure, but we had a lot of support, like essentially, whatever we made our decision, we were like utmost supported. But my parents were like very interesting coaches in terms of being completely absolved of like real opinion about your performance and how you go about it, and I think they came to that. They came to that because they my parents ran like a sports medicine clinic my mom's a PT, my dad's a PA, both very smart people like love them clinic my mom's a PT, my dad's a PA, both very smart people like love them really hard work ethics from both of them, but weren't like necessarily competitors themselves. And because we didn't really get pushed into anything.

John Butler: 13:58

I sort of didn't do anything until I started racing motorcycles. Like I didn't get signed up for T-ball Self-admittedly. My mom, like years later she was driving me to Wisconsin to race Tour of America's Dairyland as like a junior and she was like you know, I feel real bad and I've always felt real bad because I never signed you up for anything as a kid. And like she was like I think that that was like I didn't just want to spend more Saturdays at the baseball park watching t-ball, and she's like I feel bad about that. And I was like well, I do remember growing up and having a lot of autonomy of my time and like I spent a lot of time outside on completely unstructured like like kids nowadays, and I work in like you know obviously we'll talk later about like second cycle and working with kids in education but like I had so much unstructured time and it was really whatever I wanted to do.

John Butler: 14:55

And I definitely remember my both of my siblings being successful competitors. My sister was like went to horse camp at four years old and was like I'm gonna be a horse girl and like to this day as a trainer, breeder, coach and like has is competed in multiple disciplines. My brother raced motorcycles and like competed in multiple disciplines and like played baseball a bunch. But I remember like them getting a lot of ribbon, and specifically my sister getting a lot of ribbons at horse shows and she just had like a wall that was covered in ribbons and I remember being like I've never even won a trophy and I was probably like I don't know six or seven and I do feel like there was this like like I don't know six or seven and I do feel like there's this like pent up of like, oh, I like, but I don't have like my thing.

John Butler: 15:50

And then I watched that motorcycle racing and I was like, oh, I like I've always known how to ride motorcycles, like, okay, that's my thing. Then I was just like, and then, yeah, I just kind of dive, dove into it and like wanted to absorb every aspect of it and I think I keep doing that with cycling and it's fun that cycling is like I'm still doing that with bikes, like I'm someone who loves to learn. It's all just like solving problems and application of knowledge and like, okay, and like in endurance, athletics and in motorcycle racing and in anything that you want to complete, it's like how do I move the needle towards where I'm trying to go every day. I definitely I think I've always made these like inflection point decisions of like I'm gonna start doing this now.

Tom Butler: 16:42

I'm interested for you to compare, like the intensity. There's an intensity to motorcycle racing, of course, and there's an intensity to bicycle racing. I'm wondering if you can compare those two things. Yeah, definitely.

John Butler: 16:58

I mean it's all in the pursuit of feeling something For me. I think that is. I am someone who seeks to feel a lot through my endeavors and like, whether it be on a motorcycle racing or whether it be on like a single track mountain bike ride, it's all kind of looking for the same thing. And then, whether it's like the end of a really hard road race or like a 12 hour gravel ride, I just like want to go into that. I think that's what it really comes down to for me, and if I can get into a couple seconds of being like absolutely no thought other than just the reaction to what I'm doing, then that's like what I'm actually trying to find.

Tom Butler: 17:42

That's interesting.

John Butler: 17:43

My mind is completely blank, and I think that comes from like being neurodivergent and like ADHD. We're very like thrill seeking, feel better when we're moving, you know, and I think that's where a lot of like this riding comes from for me.

Tom Butler: 17:59

Share something that you think about you know like one of the more memorable experiences you've had bicycle racing.

John Butler: 18:08

In bike racing what I. It's hard for me to pick out things. I'm not someone who identifies as bikes being my life, but it's really hard for me to start separating out, I think, my idea. Although I don't find my identity in bikes, I do find that my identity has been shaped from bikes. Whether it be bikes is the main reason I was there. It's maybe a serendipitous reason of like I knew that person. I knew this person. This experience came about for that reason. But I think some like really big, impactful things was when I was a junior.

John Butler: 18:46

I went to like two of America's Dairyland and like a big junior team and it was like the most racing I'd ever done in a row and I think it was just like this experience. I did like a couple races in Georgia and then I went there and then I came back and I did like a couple races in Georgia and then I went there and then I came back and I did a couple races in the southeast and just this like really overwhelming sense of like wow, I can really like build whatever path I want, in a little bit of a way like I'm getting to go to all these places and like that's so cool and the fact that I found someone who's like willing to be involved in my journey and help me get there, which was like, at that time, the junior team, and it was like Asheville youth cycling was the team I was riding on and it was like, wow, this is a really cool experience and like I don't really know how I got here, but like yeah, and like I'm gonna go ride really hard and it was awesome and like, yeah, the, and then kind of stringing all that, all those other races together, after that I was like, wow, this is a really good way to like go there, see that, do this. That was like a big of like, oh, I can make. There's no adult that's telling me how to like set up and structure it Like there are people. It's a journey that I can make the end point wherever I want and I can make these events be a lot. You know the, the like rocks I hop on as I'm trying to get there. And then that's really when I was kind of like, oh, I've, this is like you know, autonomous goal setting and like ambiguous, like task assessment of, like if you can go anywhere, what are you going to do? Where are you going to prioritize and that was like the.

John Butler: 20:26

The landmark moment was like that year as a junior and then subsequently I like put myself in these positions and I think the biggest thing I learned from that was it wasn't a lot of the opportunities like I can speak specifically about opportunities that I was like wow, how did I get here? And like some of those were like international racing opportunities with like I went to do the tour of trinidad and tobago and I remember like laying in the water in the caribbean and being like haha, I didn't pay for a plane ticket or the way to get down here or anything. But now I'm like floating in the Caribbean at like an end of season race and like that's really sick. I'm 21, you know cool. Like again, you can kind of like take it wherever you want.

John Butler: 21:16

And the biggest thing I think I learned and I learned this at like a junior junior development camp at Mars Hill College, where I eventually started in like race collegiately was Joey Coddington, who at the time ran that Asheville youth cycling team was like you need to think about bike racing in a way of like when you get off the bike, how are things that you did on the bike going to be reflected on you and like every time you put on a kit, you're putting on expectation of others that they have onto you and so you represent that and like represent that properly. There's a difference between like having a light switch, which was what I was used to with motorcycle racing. It was like when you're on the track, you flip the switch on and like because in motorcycle racing it was like when you're on the track, you flip the switch on and like, because in motorcycle racing it's like yeah, you're fighting for it and like your elbows are out on purpose. Bicycle racing is like the same thing, but you also are like you're going to race that person again and again and again.

John Butler: 22:13

And I think that what I found is the thing that carried me far beyond my talent was the fact that I was a person that people wanted to be around and wanted to be on a team with. That's kind of what I brought to the team eventually is it was like, oh yeah, you know I'm like helpful in this and that situation, but like really, what did? It was how you contribute to like cleaning up the host house and like sharing with driving and like talking with teammates after the race. You know and like it's how you build that camaraderie and that teammate and like getting people on the boat. That was like the key thing that I learned through cycling and I think that the main thing that carried me through was how are you treating others through this? How are you like going about competition in a respectful way? It's really easy to not do that.

Tom Butler: 23:05

I love that and the wisdom in that. I think that's awesome. At some point you end up transitioning to the Northwest and you end up at Second Cycle. Can you talk about that journey?

John Butler: 23:16

So I moved out to the Pacific Northwest in like 2019 to work with what I at that time was just looking at a summer job, and it was with Pedalheads, which was like bike camps for kids. If you are a parent in the Seattle region or have nieces, grandchildren in the Northwest area, chances are they could be getting signed up for like a Pedalheads camp. So I ran one of those camps for a summer. It was awesome. It was like I had like 11 instructors. We had 60 kids each weeks, each week. I then, like I did that as a summer job, I needed to go back to georgia finish up school, did that as well.

John Butler: 23:54

At this time I'm also still racing at like a domestic elite level and like trying to finish school had raced overseas and was kind of like at a point of like I want to go someplace I've never been, and Seattle was that like I had never been to a race in Seattle. Like honestly, and that's kind of how I ended up out here Initially took on a job, worked in project management, software development for like a financial tech company for a couple of years and then was like, all right, banking software is like never going to be the thing that wakes me up in the morning and like, although, um, and I'm like very appreciative for that opportunity, I was there because I saw it as part of my stepping stone and like my ambiguous goal of like where I want to be in terms of like being happy in life, it's like I need to know how to like do things the right way, and I want someone to like teach me, so I'm going to go learn that. At like a corporation, we can say what we want, but I learned a lot of valuable lessons there. And then I was like cool, I'm ready to like move on to the next thing, which is like I am someone who can't fake purpose in work, and I think I learned that. And so I was like I'm going to use biking skills personally in my management skills and then all of the like team aspects, and then I'm going to essentially, I want to find doing this at a nonprofit.

John Butler: 25:14

And I was like in my exit interview with my boss, bless his heart, and I was just like he was like what are you going to do next? And he had kind of like of I don't know. He seemed emotional that I was leaving and I'm like that's great, you know that's how I want people to feel. He was really invested in my journey and he was like what do you want to do next? And I was like, ah, you know, I'd really like to find a job where I'm kind of like organizing something for kids and like getting people on bikes, but also not just kids, and not just kids that can pay, but like everybody, and that would be really cool. And I felt like I was just like rambling to my ex boss and he was just like, so you don't have like a job lined up? And I was like, no, not at all. And he was like, okay, well, best of luck.

John Butler: 25:59

And then, pretty much three months later, I like found this job at Second Cycle, which initially was a program director title. So they had received funding from recurring grant funding from Cascade Bicycle Club and through the Climate Commitment Act, and so they were looking to hire like program staff for the first time for like full time, where it's like, okay, we actually have the money to pay people. It's not just like you're a bike mechanic and you also teach, earn a bike. And so I just came in to second cycle as a program director and I had a list of you know, a list of clients, a book of work. I was in a fledgling non-profit that was like you know how much this program costs and when I came in they were kind of just like you know we don't know.

John Butler: 26:48

And like okay, it's like how much does this thing? And it was very cool because it was like a traditionally like real punk rock. Their OG motto was like no phones, no managers, no problems, and it was ran out of in an alleyway behind behind like a Vietnamese restaurant and it like kind of bounced around and the whole thing was like tools and empowerment and like education through not being like I'm going to work on your stuff for you, but like here's all the tools, I'm going to show you how to do it. And so it was like milk crates full of nine speed derailleurs and all this other stuff. And then eventually it like grew and grew and grew and then it became like a full service bike shop, a for real nonprofit. And then community and youth programs became part of what they were doing.

John Butler: 27:38

And so, yeah, I was part of an effort to grow programs and when I came in it was like programs didn't make any money, let alone, or like programs didn't even come close to like breaking even, and not through anybody's fault of their own. It was just like they were doing the work that they found it to be necessary for the community and they were just doing it at all costs and it was like that's awesome. That's like the kind of stuff where it's like you'll, you'll never do it as good as someone who's willing to do it for free, and it's like it. There's some truth in that and it was like I, I like loved that and so, instead of ever belittling their work, I was like cool, standing on the shoulders of like giants. They were doing that when, like no one knew where their paycheck was coming from, and so, in a way, it's like I kind of always keep that in the back of my head of like how do we remain like kind of true to being agile where it's like?

Tom Butler: 28:31

I think there is some truth in that, like I find it to be really fascinating because it seems like in your exit interview, where you had no idea you were going to go, you were describing the position at second cycle yeah, definitely and so when you saw that position, I mean it's like, okay, like someone wrote this for me yeah, definitely.

John Butler: 28:57

I was like oh yeah, no one like you can. You can hire someone else to do this job. But in terms of people that this job was made for, it was like, oh yeah, no one like you can. You can hire someone else to do this job. But in terms of people that this job was made for, it was like, and I had, and I like I did bring up the fact that I pretty much was they were like why do you want this job?

John Butler: 29:13

And I was like this is literally what I described out of thin air when I was quitting my corporate job two months ago. And but also it was like it was like my parents were just like oh, what are you doing? You know, you're like you're finally getting paid and now you're gonna like quit, and they're just like you're an idiot and so, but they're all. But they were also kind of like I literally I just said to him I was like well, you know, I figured all this other stuff out with stuff out with bike racing.

John Butler: 29:42

I figured out how to like get to Europe on like I didn't go as part of a team, like I found a host house, I like went over there as an independent. I like saved up money to go and that was like I was just like oh, this is like just another thing, and I was completely confident quitting that job and being like I know that I can figure this out because I've, like I've strung together a bunch of rafts before and like this one looks pretty good, like I actually have some skill set for this, um, so yeah, second cycle has what I think is a powerful vision, which is a world where the joy of bike riding is accessible to everyone.

Tom Butler: 30:24

So that's a simple statement, but at the same time, I think it's a very powerful statement. I'm wondering if you can talk about bringing that vision to life in Tacoma.

John Butler: 30:39

Yeah, definitely, I love how broad it is and I think when you yeah, bringing that, like I see my job as a way of like okay, a world where riding a bike is possible for everyone, and it was like okay, at that point you had to like start, not yet start like thinking creatively. What does bike riding look like for people? Not everyone bike riding. They do it with their feet. Not everybody is sitting on a seat, not everybody like we need adaptive bikes, like there. And then you start thinking about, ok, like you know all the different points of accessibility around bikes and I think like to be really utilitarian and to make biking for all people, like that's really like the purpose of the bike as the answer. I you know there's uh, there's actually like a really famous artist from my hometown in athens um, where it's the bike is the answer right, and it's like biking is at its core. This great like bikes are great utilitarian objects. They're really just springs being tensioned by cables, like obviously there's axis shifting and like I know how wrong I am on like the degree of the amount of things that are available right now, but like at the end of the day, it's like this is a very utilitarian, affordable option, and really you got to start thinking about, like, how do I get the version of cycling that matters to people? And then that's where I like turn that vision kind of into OK, here's my priority, right, and a lot of my grants and a lot of the things that fund me are, like, yes, giving high priority to places that are left out, unincorporated places, people that are being left behind by systems Right, and we are like specifically targeting like in some of my other programs, we're fully targeting at risk youth, working with youth court diversion programs and things like that working with youth court diversion programs and things like that. So, and then essentially like, because I am in an earned income nonprofit to where, like, I need to provide product and service in order to like maintain, like that is very much how the business was set up to be run with programs, and I also think that's where, like, the biggest impact is being made.

John Butler: 33:00

It's like, yeah, where you go, like get a bunch of grants to fund our positions and then hopefully hire another person, it's like, or we could go out there and find people who are trying to spend money in the community on bike education or wellness programs and we apply for that city RFP and that's how we build. Our book of work is through action and so, like, that's how I think of like yeah, this is an ambiguous goal, a lot of different ways to get over there. How are we going to do it? Um, and then the vision of opening up opening it up to all is incorporated through like okay, here's where the focus is youth, here's where the focus is unincorporated Pierce County. And you had to go like I am guided by like opportunity for funding. So it's like, but that's also my job is like. Program director. Deputy director.

Tom Butler: 33:54

And then the mission of second cycle is to demystify and normalize bike riding as a part of daily life and realize the bicycle is a tool for personal and community empowerment. There's a couple words here demystify and normalize and I'm wondering if you could just spend a little time kind of focused on those words. What is it about a bicycle that can be mystifying, and what is it about a bicycle that can be mystifying and what is it about a bicycle that can be abnormal?

John Butler: 34:26

yeah, I think, like these are two things. Like demystify. I do think these also are related to like, the core principles of like, how I approach programming. So, demystify, I think, like, immediately I start thinking of like, where, where, where? Where is the mystery? Is it mechanical, is it resources? Is it not having access to like? And, honestly, as someone who, like, didn't know how to use a quick release when I was like 13 and unthreaded it all the way to then pull the wheel out, it's like quick release, sort of a mystery, like you know, and when you and you got to think about like. Yeah, although I have all these experiences to where, like, I know how all this stuff works. But, like demystification, I think that goes around a lot of like, my core principles of like, getting people access to like. How do you, as a kid earning a bike, learn what a quick release is? How do you, as a person, get this access to knowledge resources? Educate you know, education like know-how, um, and then normalize.

John Butler: 35:33

I think that really speaks to the other thing. Ask cyclists and ask bike people. Is there is this like in group, out group, with like, and we see it with anything where it's like one group holds information right, and it's like the in-group and then the out-group would be and the like. The in-group is cyclists, bike people, then the out-group is like drivers and people observing, and so I think normalizing speaks to like that power dynamic of like in group out group, and by normalize it means like bring instead of in group out group dynamics, bring like people and like actual identity into it. So then it's like oh well, joe is like an avid cyclist and and you're kind of like normalizing it as, like it, bikes can be whatever you want it to be in your life. It can be like me, where it's like you race bikes and you do training and you know you're very intense about it, as some people would say, or you can just have it be the way that you go ride with your kids on the firefly trail or know xyz trail, like it can be normalizing that it's okay to be at all different levels of cycling. And I like that is the biggest thing that's irked me and like the cycling community, is this like elitism and like in group out group of even the group of the subgroup of people that are in the end group of bike people, and it's like why do we need to keep subdividing and creating a hierarchy, cause I think that's like where barriers get built themselves. It's like, yeah, if we talk about like, how we talk about things is very much how we treat them, and so if we yeah, I think that's kind of like how I think of normalizing it is it's like think about how biking can be a huge mystery of like, how do I take my hand off and signal?

John Butler: 37:28

What does the signal even mean? Like, okay, like the whole doing all your signaling, and like doing the bent left arm. You know it's like, and a lot of kids are like oh, why do you do that? And it's like you teach them why of like, oh well, really, these hand signals are made to be used in case you're like car blinkers don't work, or you're on a motorcycle and the throttle is on the right side, and so your only free, non-dominant hand is like your left one, and so that's why you don't just point with your right. And it's like, yeah, just like knowing that there's 100 different levels of like accessing it, and like what is really easy to me is not the same for you. Like some people's workout plan that have massive anxiety.

John Butler: 38:11

Start with like sign up for a gym online drive to the like gym parking lot, practice, thinking about going inside, and I remember like a PE teacher framing it of like that's how goal setting could look like for people and I think that's how I try to like approach.

John Butler: 38:25

The programming is like there is like no programming that's too simple and like that same sort of like effort all the way up the ladder of like programmatic delivery, of like nothing is too complex and really, when you think about it, bikes are and like bike education within itself is kind of like the taco Like I describe this to my people that want to work with me and partners in the community is we're like the Taco Bell of bikes, of like learning how to ride a bike is really like a couple key fundamental things.

John Butler: 38:57

Learning how to ride a bike is really like a couple key fundamental things and if you break those down, it really just comes down to like the permutation that they are put together in and then that's what determines your program. It's like a good pedal power position, a good stance vision away. You know that first big kick being really big for kids. It's like all that stuff is like the lettuce and the cheese and the meat and it's just like how you put it together. It doesn't matter if you're teaching someone who's three or someone who is 30.

John Butler: 39:31

It is kind of the same stuff like balance works the same way and like stuff that works for kids works really well for adults and it's like really does like I yeah, I teach programs where I'm working with adults and it's like really dead, like I yeah, I teach programs where I'm working with adults and it's like it's the same it's like literally the same games that the kids are playing and like the adults oftentimes struggle with it more than the kids, because the kids are just, you know, they're like little, uh, you know, plastic rubber balls of learning. They're like oh, they do it once and they're like okay cool, I, okay cool, I got it, and that's really cool to see.

Tom Butler: 40:05

That's really true. You know, and I, you know, I find that there's a lot of stuff for me to learn and there's not as much. It seems like my brain is not structured for, for new skills as much as it was when I was younger. So there's this vision and mission. I, I love them and I, I, you know it forms a foundation. In talk now about how that foundation moves in the programming what, what do second cycle programs look like?

John Butler: 40:43

second cycle programs is. I look at it in a couple different ways. So first it's like funding source kind of determines what type of like people we're working with and what the learning outcomes need to be. Because I'm in, like I said earlier, in that like earned income, non-profit space, where it's like everything I do is a product, so it's all business, not all business, but like it is business in terms of like I've got goals, people are expecting me to deliver, I have a scope of work, we have to do this, and so for our programs, in total I have like 11 different programs, some of them, and then there's pretty much two major bifurcations. So we have adult programs and we have youth programs, and then under youth programs, we have like a couple of different things going on there, and then under adult programs, we have a couple of different things going on there. And then, outside of like that is kind of our like learning programmatic, we're doing it on like a weekly, bi-weekly, monthly basis.

John Butler: 41:47

Then we start to have other aspects of my job, which is also programming, where it's like what do volunteers do? Do they work in the recycling and reuse center, which is like a huge people donate bikes to us like a goodwill and we give them receipts and then we either recycle them and then if there's anything good on the bike we will like okay, maybe it's a rusty frame, but it has like, oh, it's got campy super record on here and it's nine speed. Okay, pull that off, put that in the campy bin. Now someone can come shop that at the like in the shop. And so it's like maybe we're integrating volunteers there. So it's like I'm also in charge of that experience. Then we have events and rides, which is like destiny dozen, um, shitty gritty, which is like the 12 hardest, like uh, like hills, but it's going to be more like a um, it's going to be more like an alley cat, but you're going to have to like ride up the shitty hills in the shitty part of town where the bike infrastructure isn't that great. And kind of a way to say, hey, we're putting on events in these places and like we're getting people to interact with these zones. And so there's like ton of different programmatic things and like yeah, I can just be real quick in terms of like youth programmings. We work with Cascade Bicycle Club. Tacoma Public Schools is another really big one, so we're integrated in the PE, that is, in the elementary and middle schools, we essentially provide like a learning support aid. We also do the fleet maintenance for those.

John Butler: 43:22

And then with our cascade grant, that is like teens biking to destinations. So that's where, like over a certain period, the participant signs up. They, over the period, learn all of these active transportation principles, like how to create a route, and then they like make a route, create a route, and then they like make a route on a map. And then they make a route in google maps and we show them ride with gps. And then we like show them how to put their bike on the bus and like, okay, here's when you're going to go, take the sounder. Like here's the part where you get on with the bike. And you're like teaching them how to integrate, because it's all about, like climate crisis aversion, so it's like how to incorporate bites in part of what we do and seeing the bike as like a great answer, coupled with public transportation. Um, and then at the end of that program they earn a brand new bike helmet, lock, flat kit. They know how to change a flat, they've done some mechanical.

John Butler: 44:19

So it's kind of like in youth programs there are two main learning outcomes. There is like mechanical and then there is like riding. So I have like a couple of different programs that are based on mechanical and then I have a couple of different programs that are based on riding, that are based on mechanical, and then I have a couple of different programs that are based on riding. Mechanical programs are like earn a bike, which is a really common model at nonprofits, where it's like take donated bikes, have kids fix them up over a certain amount of weeks. At the end they earn the bike and they've overhauled every major system on the bike. We also have like internships. So, yeah, we do that through the school system. We also do that through the school system. We also do that through the court system.

John Butler: 44:55

We're about to take on the safe routes to school for Tacoma and that is like bike rodeos, traffic gardens, single day events, but then also like recurring events, like critical masses, and then summer camps is another big part of programming. So putting on these active transportation summer camps where kids are riding in the community, those are really fun because you're just like all right, where do you want to ride to today? And they're like, oh, we want to ride over to like titlo beach, and it's like, okay, now we're gonna spend the morning planning like how to ride over there and how to like not use big roads. And okay, like, actually, if you go down this road, and it's like being the cyclist myself, this is where I get to teach. The thing that I get really excited about, where it's like actually there's this really cool connector trail that you can take in that dead end that it looks like it's a dead end on the map that actually goes and that goes through to the other side of the neighborhood. And if you do that, then and I like I'm someone who loves wandering and there's like I could talk about wanderer for hours and anyone yeah, it's like a bike game where you're exploring new parts of the map.

John Butler: 46:03

You get one point for every new mile of road you ride.

John Butler: 46:06

I love it, and so getting to like share that with the kids and then they're like you know, next thing, you know you got to like have them carry their bikes over and you forget that there's like a creek in the middle and that they're like nine years old and it's like OK, yeah, but yeah, those are the things that are like really fun and that's kind of like how I look at programs is like we have different learning outcomes.

John Butler: 46:30

We have different funding sources. Primarily we're like mostly funded well around youth right now, because that's been the priority, but now we're starting to like build out adult education programs and we have things like Bike 101, which it's like anyone any age can sign up for our Bike 101 class and it's pretty much like an hour of open shop style which we offer on like a regular basis, where you come in, you rent a tool, stand, you work on your own bike. So our bike 101 classes are like come in, we'll do a one hour demo, maybe it's like how to fix a flat, and pretty much we like ask the room. It's like okay, what do y'all want to learn? And someone's like, okay, I, I just want to learn how to recable my bike, and everyone else is kind of like I could recable my bike too, and we'll do a demo for an hour and then for the next like two hours we'll spend time working on your individual bike with you, teaching you how to work on it, and those are like bike 101 classes.

John Butler: 47:30

So that's like even where there are adult classes, it's like we have two learning outcomes you know, education, resources or riding, and then, the other thing we do with like adults is putting on like riding opportunities, like the Destiny does and things like that, kind of like the more or less standard cookie rides where it's like okay, show up, do the ride, thank you for supporting us. This is really helpful. You know, goes into our operating budget, kind of thing. So, yeah, we're definitely trying to expand adult programs and I see that there's a lot of need for it in the community. But then it's like okay, I also have a team of five people, including myself and, honestly, my boss, and so it's like all right, if I have a lot of money for youth, I do need to focus on like coming through on my contracts, because, like that's what's going to allow me to start to do things with adult programs once, like we've got the youth program sorted out.

Tom Butler: 48:33

One of the things that you focus on is being a community hub. I'm wondering if first do you have a good sense about how developed the cycling community is there in Tacoma?

John Butler: 48:47

So, as someone who has only been here for like a little over a year, I will be the first one to say that I'm probably not the most noticeable person on the local cycling scene. I do really like the vibe of the Tacoma cycling scene. I do think it's a little bit more of like what I grew up with where there's like there's. For the most days, most days of the week, there is a ride to do with someone else, depending on what you're trying to do and like, say what you will.

John Butler: 49:19

but like Seattle much bigger cycling community, much less integrated there's like one real group ride that everyone actually knows about and it's like hot laps and it's like you don't talk much at like hot laps and so you don't really build that cycling community where here there's like the tuesday night ride and then there's the repeater ride on saturday and like we have a group ride calendar and I remember as like an 18 year old trying to figure out about what was going on, there was also a group ride calendar. So I do feel like the tacoma cycling scene is like really prime for someone starting to like loop all of these things in together. It's like a small enough community to where there's still accountability. And I think that's where it's like Ooh, it's got all the right, it's got like all the right soil to like plant the seeds in. And then there are also when you like, I think when you get into bike advocacy from like a government side and you start going to like the bicycle pedestrian meetings and like you start going to all these things that I've like been going to, you realize that the group of transportation and they like, and it's literally like here, it's like there are like six or seven people who like truly move the needle, you know, in terms of like getting the government, getting local municipalities doing the like, getting everybody on board to make bikes better where you are, and I think when fresh energy and new people come into that and like when more people start to come into that and like share the load, that's really like how you get the ball rolling and I think that's been the really fun thing that I've learned in terms of like learning new things about bikes, and that, always being exciting, is like wow, you know the T-Link, which is like our light rail, is like wow, you know the t-link, which is like our light rail.

John Butler: 51:18

I now am working with the person who's like I remember when that was just a dream in one of our bp tag meetings and it's like cool, you know back to that, like standing on the shoulders of giants and people that are doing really good work is it's like yeah, you may be one person, but you may be like one of seven people in your city, of like 200,000 people, and so it's like you can also move the needle if you like choose to spend your volunteer time doing that, and like oftentimes all those things are volunteer positions and like they want people's opinion and no one shows up, and so it's like it is pretty, it's's like it's easier to be a voice in Tacoma and in these like middling secondary cities, because it's oftentimes like we build the cities for the people that show up to give the opinion. And if you're heard in mass, if you're showing up to these things, if you're doing good work in the community, if you like, work with the city a lot, and the people that work at the city are all the also the people who decide the priority of like, and then you start to find out, like what are the constrictions of bikes getting better in your city, you become more sympathetic to it and when you start learning, it's like, oh, you know, this bike trail just doesn't go anywhere and then it just ends and then it picks up four streets later. It's like the reason they do that is because they're applying for there is priority given in government funding to incomplete bike paths. So it's like if they build a little bit of it and a little bit of it and they save like the more expensive piece for like a federal grant as opposed to a state, and you like, you start to learn and it's like, oh, why haven't they fixed this? And it's like, well, if we continue to pave every sidewalk. We need to pave every day at 100% optimal for all the people we have, we're going to still have, we're going to be done paving all the sidewalks in like 130 years from now.

John Butler: 53:06

And it's just like, oh, you start to realize like, oh, these are all. Like, yeah, it's like we love to ask the in-group, out-group thing. Yeah, it's like we love to ask the in-group, out-group thing and like, as the in-group or the out-group, I guess I didn't know all these things as a cyclist, as a road user. And then you start to like look behind the curtain and you're like, oh, that actually really makes sense. Or like, oh, wow, you know. Yeah, in that case, I probably wouldn't put a bike lane there, I would probably do it over there. And like all of this stuff is publicly available, you know, for, like, your county has like a, a 10-year plan, and like they are public meetings. So I think, like, when we start talking about community hub which I know I really branched out I think that's where you start to see, is it's like how do I build the platform for people to stand on? That's really how we think about it.

Tom Butler: 53:56

That kind of brings me to this extremely exciting announcement that I want to make, and this is an announcement I've teased a couple times here on the podcast. Second Cycle and Cycle Over 60 are going to collaborate on building a local Cycle Over 60 community in Tacoma. Now here's why I'm so excited about this program. I know we are going to make an impact on the lives of people. I have no doubt about it. My experience experiences that I've heard the whole time I've been doing the podcast.

Tom Butler: 54:29

I just know that having this Cycling Over 60 local program is going to make a difference in the lives of people and by capturing the stories of that impact, it's going to open doors to more resources. That isn't just good news here in Pierce County in Tacoma, but the connections that we make will benefit people everywhere. But the connections that we make will benefit people everywhere. I know that I'm going to be able to show some impact, make some connections with some fairly large organizations and that those organizations are going to allow the lessons that we learn and the things that we do here to go out and really what we build here can become a model for other Cycling Over 60 communities all over the place, and that's really exciting to me and I'm really excited to be working with you on this, john, and that is really exciting to me to be benefiting those people. I want you to tell me, john, as we've talked about collaborating on a Cycling Over 60 program, what about this is exciting to Second Cycle.

John Butler: 55:46

Yeah, I immediately. I think what's exciting to me is this goes back to all of like our five pillars, which is what we set out in our strategic vision, where it's like, yeah, if I'm going to fundamentally look at, everyone out there needs to either get like demystify bikes or normalized bikes I'm not talking about just youth, I'm not just talking about able-bodied people, I'm not, you know, and I need to increase the purview of like what we think about as access, and it's constantly. We find that there's like always a waiting towards youth and there's a reason for that, right, that's like oftentimes, like what society puts a focus on funding, but I don't think that, just because of an age difference, that anyone's experience is worth more or less than anyone else's, and so by creating a space and starting to facilitate a way for these people to interact and get together and start to build a cohort of their own is the same reasons that I want to do it for the youth. It's because it's like, yes, this is like productive for my organization, right. It's like more people coming in is like productive for my organization, right. It's like more people coming in the door, more people that know what Second Cycle is doing, great, but it's also like back to that like building platforms. It's like, how can I build a platform for someone else to stand on to empower their community? Because to me, that's really what like Second Cycle is. It's like it's back to that like oh gee, no phones, no managers, no problem. It's like it was really back to like let me show you where the tools are and you like really take this and I think like that's what I'm trying to do through community empowerment.

John Butler: 57:30

And when people approach me like yourself, where it's like I've got, I've got a plan, I like know how I can impact these people, I know how their, their lives can be made better, it becomes like a no brainer for me, because it's like, well, yeah, I want like. I want it to be better for kids, I want it to be better for elderly adults, I want it to be better for people. That and it's until we give them attention, until there's like the adult learning to ride class. It's like that's how we are going to always have an in group and an out group. You know, that's like where drivers get a lot of like their.

John Butler: 58:09

Whatever motivates them to be nasty to bike people is like they't get what they're, what we're doing, and so it's like, the more we can try to like make that all-encompassing and reduce that friction between like in group, out group, the more it can we can start to like actually coexist. Um, and I think I really wanted to say this uh, I never really understood like whenever, throughout my career of like biking anywhere, it was like you go to a gas station and you're the only person there and like no one else would ever.

John Butler: 58:41

No one else would ever talk to you if you were just in a gas station outside eating a bag of chips. But because you're there on a bike, for some reason, people are like I'm going to interact with this guy and I see it all the time. It's like I'm sitting there getting whatever and like I make eye contact and I'm like that person is going to come talk to me and they're going to do it. And I never got. I was like what is it about being here? And it was my girlfriend brought up the fact.

John Butler: 59:07

It was like because everyone knows how to ride a bike and so everyone immediately has that commonality with you. So everyone immediately has that commonality with you of like at least being able to be like oh, how far are you riding and when you're? You could say four miles, you could say 400. And I've like tested the waters on all those and like people's reaction is not linear to like mileage or distance or anything, but it's all relative to what their experience is. But it's all relative to what their experience is and I feel like that was like a really key thing of like OK, the more people that have a relative positive experience with bikes. If I'm like, that's my umbrella goal for everything I do Youth, adult, funded, unfunded it's like the more positive experiences people can have with cycling.

Tom Butler: 59:54

I'm doing my job I think it's appropriate that we are launching like the first local cycling over 60 program here in the state of washington. I recently posted about washington being recognized by the american league of cyclists as the number one state for bicycling. You can't see, but John is celebrating here, and so I think it's good that those of us who are over 60 get fully embraced here in Washington. So what do you think about that?

John Butler: 1:00:28

I love it. I mean, washington is just the best playground for biking. No matter what type of riding you want to do, there is the ability to do it here and like, okay, maybe we don't have the sickest weather of all time, but I do think there's like a set and setting to it Like, all right, you know it's rainy, cold, gross. All right, go mountain biking, be under the trees. And like, you have great access to that in Washington. You are someone who like, okay, I just want to ride like a bike trail, away from everybody. Great, washington's got that.

John Butler: 1:01:00

All right, I need I'm a commuter, I need to get to like work relatively safely, like coming from the South, where it's like there's not a lot of bike infrastructure, and like where it is in place, it's kind of like at best doing some work. Right, not again, not to belittle anybody's work, it's just like more people ride out here. So, yeah, you're gonna have like better, better bike infrastructure. Yeah, I think that washington is a place that like we're all levels of cycling. Whether you want to like rip some insane mountain bike lomer, that's like a world cup course, or ride like a sea to trail scenic bike trail, we have both of those and we have everything in between and like, yeah, that's what I really like about riding here yeah, I love it and you know.

Tom Butler: 1:01:46

Again, I think it's important that you know what I have in my mind is the connections that we create in building this program out. They can benefit listeners no matter where they are, and I really believe that and I'm really looking forward to sharing that and having people follow along and seeing how this program grows and the impact that we're having.

John Butler: 1:02:10

Yeah, definitely. And I think one of the best words of advice I ever got around doing something involving with bikes was when I was like trying to find a group in Seattle early on, one of my friends from back home who like learn how to get riding or ride bikes in general. He was just I was kind of explaining to him at dinner. I was like you know, it's just like back home, you got everybody and like everyone knows and each other and he was, and I just kind of like had this sense of like missing it. And then he was like, well, yeah, bring the Athens Georgia to Seattle. And it's like I think that when I started doing that in Seattle, I started like running a group ride and I was like really like this.

John Butler: 1:03:02

And then I do more with cycling. It's like really like organizing that. That was exciting, like people had a good time and so, yeah, don't be afraid to just like bring the whatever. And so, yeah, don't be afraid to just like bring the whatever wherever. That place that like used to motivate you, like take that same how it made you feel and try to like figure out what you had to do to facilitate that and then just do it in your city and like, honestly, it doesn't take that much work. It's like it can be if the group ride is more than you and one other person, or it's more than you and one other person, that's a group ride, you know, and like I've had group rides where like four people show up and it was sick. And I've had group rides show up where I thought four people were going to show up and 24 did and it was like also sick I love that.

Tom Butler: 1:03:49

I I think that's just the best perspective for sure. Getting to know john here a little bit, I think you all can see why I would claim him as my close relative.

John Butler: 1:04:01

I appreciate that we probably are related, you know.

Tom Butler: 1:04:03

Maybe somewhere, and I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to do this, John, and also for you know how open you have been in our conversations about cycling over 60. I think you are just a real gift to the cycling community there in Tacoma.

John Butler: 1:04:23

Thank you, I really appreciate that. Yeah, and I just like I'm so excited about bikes and I love bikes for real, and so I just want to like have that happen for other people.

Tom Butler: 1:04:34

Well, we will find other reasons to have you on and other conversations to have. All right, well, talk to you later.

John Butler: 1:04:42

All right, see ya.

Tom Butler: 1:04:52

My interactions with John have been awesome. I think a lot of people that get to know John are impressed with the way he views his mission in life. He has chosen to play a role in helping people discover the power of cycling because he has experienced the joy of being on a bike in different situations himself. I couldn't be happier to be able to spend more time working on a program with John, and I feel that same way about Second Cycle as well. It's an organization that has emerged from a desire to impact the community. That is what I want to be a part of.

Tom Butler: 1:05:23

I want to roll out programs that will encourage older riders to keep going and inspire others who haven't been riding to jump on a bike and get fit. I'm looking forward to putting together a group of people that will employ proven strategies and also innovate new ways of engaging people in group rides and events. Like I've mentioned a couple times, I'm confident that the connections I will make will benefit cyclists from all over. I look forward to keeping you posted on the progress of this local program. I hope you are connected with a good cycling community in your area and your riding is not just a physical experience but also a social one. And remember, age is just a gear change.