Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode eight Cycling the Metow, and I'm your host, Tom Butler. Before I get to this week's interview, here is a brief update on my fitness journey. One of the areas of focus for this season of the podcast is personalized medicine, and I feel like I've had my first personalized medicine consultation. Last week, Two weeks ago, I shared my interpretation of some recent lab work. The consultation that I had done on the lab work, however, gave a different perspective. I shared that I felt good seeing my insulin response to the glucose tolerance test that I took, but the health consultant I'm working with interpreted the results as showing that I have, in his view, advanced diabetes. I need to explain this a bit. This consultant looks at several measures of glucose management to evaluate diabetes. He then puts you in a category based on your worst outcome of testing. In my case, my worst outcome was how high my blood glucose went after two hours of ingesting 75 grams of glucose orally. He also factored in what happened with my insulin response before that two-hour glucose level. Based on this data, he believes that I have lost significant function of the beta cells in my pancreas. To further explain his thinking, I'll talk a bit about A1c. My A1c was 6.4. That A1c would categorize me at the upper limit of prediabetes. However, I can mask a poorly functioning pancreas by exercising a lot and eating very low, simple and refined carbohydrates, and that would bring my A1c down. Of course, exercise and sugar avoidance are extremely important for me and I need to continue to do both. But even if my diet and exercise can help me bring my A1c down to 6.0, my recent lab work shows that I will still have impaired pancreatic function. All I would be doing with diet and exercise is reducing the need for insulin. I am not helping the beta cells in my pancreas to produce more insulin. Understanding that I'm functionally someone with advanced diabetes is very important. This is most likely the result of decades of poor diet and obesity that came along with it. Lack of activity is a contributor as well, but I bet it has more to do with highly processed foods that poisoned me along the way.

Tom Butler: 2:39

Moving forward from here, my focus will be on rebuilding the capacity of my pancreas to produce insulin. Here, my focus will be on rebuilding the capacity of my pancreas to produce insulin. Now, to be honest, I am pessimistic about this. You can find a lot of information showing that beta cells are not permanently lost. However, in almost every case, this is talking about catching beta cell dysfunction early. In my case, I think I have been destroying beta cells for at least 15 years, maybe longer. Believe me, I would like nothing more than to see my pancreas producing more insulin in a year from now. That would be awesome news for me and for anyone else in my position.

Tom Butler: 3:13

One piece of very good news about all of this is that my lab work doesn't indicate that I have an autoimmune element to my pancreatic dysfunction. While this could be a false negative, it's likely that I am safe from that perspective. There are two other things to rule out. One is that environmental toxins are damaging my pancreas, and the other is that I have a genetic variation that contributes to the problem. I will be having more testing done to see about the toxins. However, I will talk later about my issues with genetic testing. Immediate thing that I will be doing is to start taking supplements that are meant to support optimal functioning of my pancreas and to counteract toxicity. I'm not planning to alter my diet much at all right now, but that might also be coming soon. I don't know all the supplements I will be taking. I still have another consultation to do to help figure that out, but I will give details on that as soon as I can.

Tom Butler: 4:12

Switching gears I'm excited to have a Cycling Over 60 Zwift Club. I have planned the first club event for Friday, November 22nd. It is a short ride and I will be taking it easy. I also plan on opening up a Zoom chat during the ride. If you would want to get a Zoom link, send me an email.

Tom Butler: 4:31

Those of you in the Cycling Over 60 Strava Club may have noticed that I'm spending more time on Zwift. I used to spend most of the time after meals on an exercise bike, but now I'm doing that on Zwift instead. An exercise bike, but now I'm doing that on Zwift instead. I feel somewhat nervous that Zwift makes it a little too easy to decide to stay indoors when the weather isn't ideal, and one thing that I know is I need to make sure that I'm spending plenty of time out in the fresh air. But I do find Zwift to be fun and I'm thinking that doing some Zwift rides on Zoom could be a really fun way to get together.

Tom Butler: 5:18

On my failed attempt to ride across Washington last season, I still had some really wonderful experiences. One of the best was the ride from 5,476 feet over Washington Pass, 30 miles, to Winthrop, Washington at 1,768 feet. Winthrop is such a really fun town and a very unique setting. On my way cycling to town, I passed Metow Cycle and Sport. The next day I dropped by to check it out and really loved the whole vibe of the shop. I was able to get one of the founders, Joe Brown, to share what it has been like to operate the shop in Winthrop and talk about cycling in the Metow Valley. I want to thank Joe Brown, co-founder of Metow Cycle and Sport, for joining me today. I'm glad to be able to talk with you, Joe.

Joe Brown: 5:59

Thank you, Tom and pleasure to find some time, get to know you better and appreciate the time.

Tom Butler: 6:04

Yeah, a couple months ago I was in Winthrop, washington, which is a very cool place, and since I'm talking about Winthrop, I have to give a shout out to a restaurant called Jupiter. I just think awesome food. Are you familiar with Jupiter? I imagine you are.

Joe Brown: 6:21

We go there often. It's a breath of fresh air to have some good, fresh food, particularly in the winter months.

Tom Butler: 6:29

Yeah, I can imagine. While I was in Winthrop I biked past Metow Cycle and Sport and later on I just had to stop in because of course it's a bike shop and I have to go to basically every bike shop. I see and listeners can't see this but I'm wearing an awesome lightweight hoodie that says Ride the Metow and your shop is responsible for this hoodie.

Joe Brown: 6:52

Looking good. Thanks for wearing it.

Tom Butler: 6:54

Appreciate that no problem. It's actually one of my favorite shirts, so a lot of people around here get to see Ride the Metow on me. I don't know if that's good advertisement or not.

Joe Brown: 7:06

I think, in the big scheme of things, absolutely.

Tom Butler: 7:11

Ever since I was there, I've been curious about the cycling scene in the Metow, and I'm always intrigued by what it takes to run an independent cycling shop, so it's great to hear from you today, joe. I'm going to start out by asking what is your earliest memory of the bicycle?

Joe Brown: 7:29

Yeah, good question. There are many, but there is one in particular that, you know, from time to time as we get older I always kind of still find myself reflecting on. There was a time in my early childhood I think this was kindergarten where my stepdad had taken a job with Eusiris Erie, which is a big like heavy equipment for mining and extraction, I think, and he was doing some engineering work there. So we were in Milwaukee, wisconsin, for, I think, a year or two, and so the first bike that I got was a little Schwinn Pixie, of course, and uh, I'm giving away my, my vintage here, but uh, but was white and red.

Joe Brown: 8:15

And of course, milwaukee, wisconsin at that time had real winters, and so I got that bike in the winter when there was snow on the ground, but I just, of course, had to ride it, and I don't remember the details too much, other than I do remember me coming in soon thereafter into the house and lifting up my shirt to my mom in tears, and I had road rash on my chest from basically my chest down to my stomach, from falling off in the snow and kind of sliding down our front yard, which was sort of a steep, icy thing. So, for whatever it's worth, that's my first memory of riding bikes, probably different than most.

Tom Butler: 9:05

Well, again, I think there's the energy there. With a bike, it's like you get a new bike. It's like I got to get on this thing.

Joe Brown: 9:12

You know regardless of what it is.

Tom Butler: 9:16

I understand that you used to race. Can you talk about that experience?

Joe Brown: 9:21

Yeah, you know, I didn't come from a um, from a super athletic family in the traditional sense, but had lots of friends who came from very recreational families and so a good friend of mine and I, of course I was liked bikes and started riding them early. But when I was eight years old started racing BMX early. But when I was eight years old started racing BMX and so a friend of mine and his family were totally into it and at that time in Western Washington I can think of maybe four or five BMX tracks so you could race every weekend for the better part of spring and summer and fall, much different than it is today. Of course I started with that, had a lot of early success I think you know my mom still razzes me about this, but I had a run of I think one nine of 11, you know motos over the course of a couple weekends and so, for whatever reason, I kind of took to that and that sort of started off many decades of racing. So after bmx did some junior road racing again I'm giving away my vintage a little bit, but mountain biking was then starting to actually become a thing and so I was fortunate enough to kind of get in to that discipline early and you know, this was early 20s I guess at that time for me, age wise and started a local shop, kind of offered me a spot on their kind of grassroots team and then started doing some regional races. Then started doing some regional races, then started doing some national races, met some success, um, and started realizing like hey, even you know at that time local races you could grab enough money from uh winnings to pay for trips and gas and food and sort of. You know, the young enterprising mind started, uh started to work and, um, then I thought maybe I should give this a go, you know, and so started uh continuing with a lot of the national events where I could afford it and got better support and some sponsorship and eventually rode for some bigger teams, which then led to kind of more road racing at a pretty high regional level.

Joe Brown: 11:51

I never really liked road racing but it was kind of a necessary evil and from my perspective you needed to do it to get the racing days and the exposure and you kind of had to follow the money, so to speak. And then from there cyclocross was kind of starting that big surge of popularity in North America. So we had I don't know if you remember but Super Cups and so on came to North America. So I tried to race all those and, you know, got to brush shoulders with European world champions that came over and it was a really fun, fun era.

Joe Brown: 12:31

And you know, man, if I add up all those years that took me into my you know mid-30s and then contending with man, what does Masters racing look like? Am I even interested in that and whatnot? So I've kind of dabbled and kept my hands in it over time as a, you know, somewhat older person now and still love it. I just got back from doing the Transier Norte and um outside of Oaxaca, so that's a four day blind and neuro stage race. So that was, you know, still still like to get out there and do what I can.

Tom Butler: 13:09

Yeah, it sounds like a challenge for sure. So it sounds like you're still interested in challenging yourself, so I think that's awesome, for better or for worse, and at some point your passion for cycling turned into metal cycling sport. Can you talk about that transition?

Joe Brown: 13:29

yeah, it's kind of an interesting and not maybe a bit of a circuitous route. You know, it is what it is. I always have had some mechanical aptitude and interest in mechanical things, bikes and other things, and I got to work on the team side of things, on the, you know, mechanic side, kind of just because I was interested and good at it. But I remember telling myself I'm never going to work in a bike shop. Man, what a dead end thing that would be and I don't want to be one of those people who retires from racing and then the default is I'm gonna just, you know, work in the back of the shop and piece together a living, which is somewhat humorous to even think about now. But interestingly, the connection to the met how and entree to sort of potentially getting involved in shops kind of converged at that point because at the time I was working for the university of washington, um, I had friends here in the met how and I would come during the off season and do some riding, but mostly skiing, and I met some folks who own MetHowNet, which is a local internet service provider, amongst other things, and I became friends with them and they were like, you know, we really need someone to help us build out um, our wireless network for to provide uh internet service for the valley, and I was like kind of interested in that, had some experience with network administration and whatnot. And so I took some vacation time, came over, worked with those guys for a couple weeks and I'm like you know, I think I want to make the move over here and escape the city and whatnot. So I literally dove in, left job with great benefits and whatnot. Nobody accused me of being smart, of course, but so found my way over here and then I that man there is a need for, first of all, the writing's great, the terrain's great, people are active and everything. There's a few small shops that were kind of partially doing bike stuff, but not full service in my estimation, and I remember thinking, man, there is a market for this that's not really being capitalized on. Maybe there's a possibility at some point.

Joe Brown: 16:10

And a friend of mine had started a shop out of his garage as kind of a retirement hobby and he kept asking me you know, can you help me with this? Can you help me with this? How do you do thus? And so, how do you build me with this? Can you help me with this. How do you do thus and so? How do you rebuild forks and shocks and whatnot, which I had experience doing? To make a long story short, his mom ended up getting sick. He needed to leave the valley and he's like, hey, you're better equipped to do this. Here's what I have. Do you want to take this on? And it was a very, very small check out of savings. I basically wrote him a check and I was like, okay, let's just see how this goes. My work was kind of waning at on the internet side and so I just decided to check it out and see how it went and kind of. The rest is is history umed up moving in a couple different retail spaces over the years, and here we are, 20 years later.

Tom Butler: 17:12

For someone who's never been to Winthrop? How do you describe what Winthrop is like?

Joe Brown: 17:18

Winthrop is a small town in rural north central Washington located in the Metow Valley, has a population of somewhere between four and 600 folks. But the interesting thing about it is it's this nexus of local people and a lot of multi-generational families. Also there are some new folks have moved here over the years. But there's also a mix of people that have second homes here. So for people that live in Western Washington, whether that be Seattle or Bellingham or Tacoma, you know have a second home, escape the city and have a cabin or an extra house here. So there's that. And then it's also a big tourist destination for whether it's climbing, riding, rafting or just exploring other things recreationally. So it's an interesting mix of those people and those interests.

Joe Brown: 18:25

It does have a Western look and feel to it. So you know there's kind of classic boardwalk on the main road through town. Some of that does have traditional Western history. Some of it is made to sort of stereotypically display that, I guess you'd say, with facades and whatnot. So it does have a really unique, you know, look and feel to it. But the thing that I just would stress is, man, there's so much behind all of that. It's a really dynamic place more than it seems on paper.

Tom Butler: 19:04

It seems obvious that there is an element of embracing tourism as part of the economy of Winthrop. That's fair to say, right.

Joe Brown: 19:16

Absolutely. I mean, I say it all the time, which isn't? You have to be a little bit careful. We all kind of agree to disagree on lots of things here, like any small place. But our economy is a recreational economy, meaning dollars generally are coming from other places supporting what we can and can't do here. So we sort of live and dive by how many people come and visit, whether we like that or not.

Tom Butler: 19:53

And you started the shop, I think in 2006? 2005. And so you've been out a while. I'm wondering how. Metal Cycle and Sport I don't know if that was the original name, or I'm just wondering the evolution of the shop since then.

Joe Brown: 20:13

Yeah, well, very humble beginnings, because I you know, anyone that has started a business can probably appreciate this. But you know, you kind of look at what's the potential here, what's the opportunity cost, who are the people, what's the market, what's the size of the market, and how do I understand that? And so I remember thinking about all those things and consulting with some small business administration consultants who I knew, and I remember thinking this place is too small, there's no way that this is going to work. But at the same time I'm sort of seeing how dynamic it is and money flowing through other businesses and the Valley in general, and I was like, yeah, there's more to this. And that's when I really started to better understand. There's a lot of money in people visiting, there's a lot of money that comes from people that have second homes, and so there's a lot. The market's bigger than what I realized on paper, right? So Julie, my business partner and partner in all senses of the word, and I really kind of just dug into it and we're like, okay, let's give this a go.

Joe Brown: 21:31

For the first year or so we operated on our property and then, after that, moved to Main Street in Winthrop, on the boardwalk to Main Street in Winthrop on the boardwalk, which was, I think, maybe 1,000 or 1,100 square feet, seemed big at the time and now I cringe at those numbers and it was largely the two of us and some part-time help right and kind of just doing everything.

Joe Brown: 22:02

And it was just an amazing evolution because friends that I had developed in the industry from racing, every time I asked for like hey, I'd like to sell your bikes, or I'd like to sell your products, or I'm looking for thus, and so it just proved to me that that whole industry is based on relationships and friendships and that still exists to this day.

Joe Brown: 22:28

So I owe a lot to those people that helped me in the early days because it really made adding and growing that business so much easier and people locally really really stepped up Right and people locally really really stepped up right. So people were all of a sudden buying bikes, there was more service than I could sort of deal with, which led to hiring more folks, then moving to a much bigger location, which we still are in today, which you've been to and you know now we're, I think, have a staff of between 10 and 12. And a lot of our staff we've had for more than 10 years, so it's been just a fun, as much as I think I know I really learn stuff every day, right, and I try to be pretty humble about how we do business and not assume things and pay attention, and it's been a really fun ride.

Tom Butler: 23:25

Yeah, I just want to say that aesthetically I really liked the shop. You know there's something about it and I don't know who's behind that, if that's a co-effort between the two of you, but you know, just walking in and everything, I just really liked the aesthetics of the shop. So thank you Good for you for that.

Joe Brown: 23:45

It's a team effort. We kind of just treat it like a family and try to involve all of our staff in the look and feel. I mean, the reality is we all spend an inordinate amount of time in those four walls, so trying to find something that works, feels comfortable, is appealing to our customer base, but also something that is efficient and allows us to do our business best. We're sort of sticklers around certain things, like it needs to be clean and organized, and that's just important to us, and we get a lot of comments similar to yours, so appreciate that.

Tom Butler: 24:29

This is a big question, obviously, but again, you've been at it for a while and how would you describe the changes, the transition in the cycling industry over the years?

Joe Brown: 24:42

Man, it's huge. I'd say there's a couple of different things at play. One is the value in our customer base has changed. Bikes have changed a lot and the industry has also changed a lot over the 20 years. As our business has grown, the value has grown and the diversity of people that we're serving has grown.

Joe Brown: 25:03

So if you can imagine, you know we might sell a $300 bike to, you know, a local family in one hour and the next hour someone comes in and they want to do a custom build or whatever it might be, for $12,000. And all of that is sort of fair game in any given day, right. So it's a small business. Trying to really serve a really diverse customer base is challenging, but it's a good problem to have. But it forces us to be thoughtful around that what brands we have relationships with, what we can stock, how we meet all those needs and stay in business, right.

Joe Brown: 25:52

So fortunately, in my opinion, the bike industry has been, at least on one hand, pretty smart in realizing that. You know, the older, active population has really been driving the industry. It's not the people just out of college, it's people that actually have more resources and more time, right. And so the advent of endurance road bikes, which then led to gravel bikes, and then, of course, the diversity of and variety of mountain bikes has been huge as well, right? So, going from old steel bikes that all had the same look and feel in the early 90s to now know, you can have a trail bike with front and rear suspension, you can have a cross-country oriented bike with front and rear suspension, you can have an e-bike, you can have all those things.

Joe Brown: 26:55

So, depending on what our customers are looking for, there are products that are stock that really fit all the budgets and different equipment requirements, which has been really fun to see. Right? So there's less. I remember in the early days like, yeah, you know, I just every time I ride my bike it hurts, and I'm assuming that's the same for all bikes, and so I guess that's just how it's going to be, and it really was an opportunity for us to like, you know, let's can buy a bike off the shelf and have everything you need.

Joe Brown: 27:52

I think that's been great and super helpful. And then on the other side is you know, think about how many brands there are, think about how many choices you as a consumer have. Think about how many choices you as a consumer have, and then think about all of the marketing and social media and other types of media that are basically telling you what you need. It's extremely hard for people to really navigate what they might buy and what's important and what they need and how much they need to spend. So I think, while that's a challenge, we've been somewhat successful at helping people navigate that marketplace, right. So, okay, let's take all that and let's distill that down into a good, better best, given what you're asking for and what your budget is, and try to make this simple and get you riding and enjoying bikes and let the hard decisions kind of be solved with conversations with customers, right.

Tom Butler: 28:53

One of the things that I find interesting about myself and I know that I'm not unusual about this is that I got back into cycling a couple of years ago after being away for quite some time, and bikes had really changed a lot. And you know, I can remember having a thought in my mind of having a bike. You know, I I want to have a bike. You know, in my twenties I wanted to have a bike.

Tom Butler: 29:23

And so now, to me, it's more like seeing the bike as a tool for getting out and enjoying the world. That doesn't mean that I have a bike. It means that there are different things that I want to enjoy and so there's different tools that I want to have in my toolbox to enjoy. So, you know, I just got introduced to cyclocross. My son-in-law just started racing cyclocross and so I actually am going to train.

Tom Butler: 29:59

I don't know that I'll actually do a race, but I'm actually going to do some free classes and stuff. You know, but I have in my mind I'm actually going to do some free classes and stuff, you know. But I have in my mind, you know, can I take my endurance bike and and use that as a cyclocross bike? Or, you know, do I want to cycle cross bike and I I started. I I've done one bike packing trip and I want to do more than that, more of that, and I want to do more than that, more of that, and so and it definitely, you know, I've got a bike that I'm using. That's like what was called a fitness bike. It's a Trek FX3. I don't know if you know that I don't know that well.

Tom Butler: 30:42

And so I'm using that bike as my bike, packing bike but you know, there's some things I would like to have different with that. So again, kind of, I am not looking at having one bike anymore, and it seems like that's something that innovation has really unlocked. Is that fair to say?

Joe Brown: 31:07

you could apply lots of different products as a, as an analogy, to sort of prove the point. But maybe we had a pair of skis that we used at one time. But now you look at, maybe you want to do some backcountry, maybe you want to do some alpine days, maybe you want to do some schemo, maybe you want to do, uh, cross-country skiing, either skate or all of a sudden there's, you know, seven packages of things that allow you to do things on skis. Do you need all those? Probably not.

Joe Brown: 31:35

But point is, we have so many choices that really allow us to choose what we want to do, when we want to do it, where we want to do it. And bikes are no different, right? So, while there are some opportunities to use certain bikes for multiple uses you know it's more normal I would argue to like okay, well, what kind of bikes are we talking about? So I have my gravel bike for this, my cross bike for doing cyclocross races. Maybe I'm using my gravel bike for bike packing or whatnot. So there's certainly room for using things for multiple things. But, you know, think about how many choices when you go to buy a new mobile phone, like in one brand you probably have six choices now.

Joe Brown: 32:31

Do you want the regular one? Do you want the pro? Do you want the pro max? What size do you want? How much memory, like? Okay, well, I just want a phone, and then it turns out we don't even really use our phones for making phone calls that often we're doing all sorts of things with it. So I think we just live in a world that you can kind of have exactly what you want if you're willing to pay for it, and our job as retailers is to help sort of make the best choice for what you're after, right.

Tom Butler: 33:04

The Metel Valley is a special setting as far as the environment is concerned, the topography or whatever, and can you talk about how that uniqueness drives what, or what you've learned about how to drive what you, how to determine what you offer from that setting?

Joe Brown: 33:26

I guess I could take this a lot of different ways, but I think our unique setting whether it be landscape, climate, environment or a combination of all those, has really sort of allowed us to sort of curate how we do business and why we do it, I guess, to be fair, so for one, our landscape and I guess I'll just kind of jump into mountain bikes, just because it's an easy example so we have a lot of elevation and a lot of relief. So the difference between valley bottom floor and the highest elevation you're going to encounter on a trail is roughly between 1,800 feet and 8,000 feet, but most of it's pretty low gradient stuff. And then we've already discussed, let's say, most of our riders are between 40 and 60 years old. All of a sudden, sudden, there are certain bikes that are going to cater to people enjoying that kind of landscape. Right, we don't have a lot of black, double black, really extreme terrain, but we have a lot of that intermediate, flowy, kind of open, higher trail speed environments for people to enjoy on mountain bikes. So then, as a bike shop owner, I'm kind of going all right. Well, this is our market, this is our terrain, we're going to carry these bikes because they basically do that the best right, and then we might sort of have some bikes that have a lot more capability for people that are sort of on the more techie side of those, or, on the other end, I just want to go fast on really smooth trails. I don't need a bike with a lot of travel and a lot of complexity, I just want something that's light and fast and I'm scared to death of, you know, burns and jumps and whatnot. So that kind of defines that and and not that many miles of pavement, right. So all of a sudden now we have a tool that allows people to get off the busy highways, feel safer, enjoy our environment, our terrain, and so that's been another kind of example of kind of how our setting has kind of flourished with certain categories of bikes and certain categories of people.

Joe Brown: 36:12

It would be I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the changing climate. You know we've had a lot of fires over the 20 years, and so that's really changed, not so much what people are doing and how they're doing it, but it certainly has affected when people visit and the environment that we live in, right. So when the pass closes because of a fire or we have, you know, smoky periods during the summer. It's just not safe to be outside, right, and so that has very real impacts on what we can do.

Joe Brown: 36:57

And I can tell you just time after time people call up like, well, what's the smoke situation? I'm like, yeah, you don't want to be here, I don't want to be here, I don't want to be here, I don't want to go outside. So we're now seeing and this kind of gets back to a little bit of the business side we're seeing kind of two seasons, kind of pre-fire season and post-fire season, with a bit of a lull or plateau, you know, sometime in late July through August, just because people have learned. It's like I'm checking weather and I'm checking fire and I'm checking air quality and that's going to determine whether I go visit the Met how or not.

Tom Butler: 37:39

That's an interesting illustration of a business impact of climate change. Yeah, you know I don't think most people would think about that, but yeah, the uh drier, you know less moisture in the mountains, you know a couple passes away or whatever can have an impact on the Valley and the businesses in the Valley.

Joe Brown: 38:04

Yeah, the valley and the businesses in the valley, yeah, it's um, it's a real, it's a real impact that has, you know, real economic implications, without question.

Tom Butler: 38:14

How would you rank the area there as far as off-road cycling? Is concerned it, would you say it's world-class. Would you elevate it that high? I do.

Joe Brown: 38:25

And I would add one caveat, and that is it hasn't always been that way. So enter in more folks visiting from more places. And then the realization if you're, if you're going to compete for visitors and tourism, then you have to have a product that is desirable. And anyone who lives in the Pacific Northwest and beyond for that matter, has seen the growth of mountain biking, you know. Go to any intermountain west town and those towns are full of bikes, with bike racks and people wanting to explore the terrain on mountain bikes and our terrain is no different.

Joe Brown: 39:11

So what do we want to offer people? Right? And when I first moved here, you know a lot of the mountain biking was literally either off-season cross-country ski trails that weren't that exciting for me anyway, and just game trails that had seen a little work by locals to make those passable and whatnot. But it wasn't something that you would come here and go oh my gosh, I want to, wasn't something that you would come here and go oh my gosh, I want to hunker down for four days and really, uh, hit it hard with mountain bikes. And so over the last decade in particular, there's been a lot more money and resources and cooperation across various organizations to make the biking experience here better.

Joe Brown: 40:09

And our high Alpine opportunities literally are world-class, because the terrain is world-class and the visibility and the views are amazing. So I think that's changing a lot and we it's not just us saying how great we are, it's just we're seeing a lot of folks that have come to visit and be like you know, we always used to go to Bellingham or we always used to be, and families can come and there's a little bit of something for everybody. So, um, I hesitate to use the term world class because that means different things to to different people, but we have really really good writing and it's become more and more recognized over the last decade you look like at an event like Unbound and you know those are things that can expose a lot of people to an area.

Tom Butler: 41:11

Do you think events are important for Winthrop to be recognized?

Joe Brown: 41:18

One good example is the Ski to the Sun cross-country ski race and relay that happens each winter. You know, that started very humbly with really not enough people to really make it sustainable and that has grown and grown and grown and now there's over a thousand folks, and I think that's how you have to grow things. You know, unbound in its early days was the same thing, right? So how do you grow it? Or the Berkabiner in Wisconsin same idea. It's a huge race, huge economic benefits. We have a unique challenge in that we don't have, on any given day, how many beds do we actually have to fill to support a big event, right? And then, if you are going to fly here, then where are you going to fly into? How are you going to get here? So, not to make excuses, but there are very real limitations that um that I think have prevented really big top tier events from starting and and here.

Joe Brown: 42:27

But I think they're important for exposure, I think they're important for economic vitality and for us as a community to learn right. I mean people that do those races oftentimes do those races elsewhere and there's a lot to learn about how to do it better and how to make it work and all the things you can imagine yeah, I think it does be.

Tom Butler: 42:50

It would become an interesting event where there's, like it's, an adventure along with an event where absolutely maybe you're even camping someplace and maybe there's a big place to camp or something. So I I could kind of go down that rabbit hole of of like thinking about how to structure an event, but I won't do that here.

Joe Brown: 43:09

Well, Tom, maybe, maybe you need to be the guy to start something up.

Tom Butler: 43:15

Yeah, you say that, but that like sounds incredibly fun to me and I think I actually have a team of some pretty bright people that would take that on. And there you go. Someday I might be having that conversation at a cyclocross event. So I came to winthrop on us bike route 10 yep and um, just to let you know, it was just part of a failed attempt to bike across Washington. Unfortunately, I got some bursitis or something in my knees and I couldn't go on past Winthrop, but I wanted to bike into Winthrop, so I went from Anacortes to Winthrop.

Joe Brown: 44:01

Good job Good job.

Tom Butler: 44:02

Yeah, and you know, I also experienced that elevation change you're talking about, from Washington Pass down into Winthrop, which was one of the, you know, one of the memories I will keep for sure. I'm wondering if you see traffic because of US Bike Route 10, is that something that is used?

Joe Brown: 44:29

yes, and I would also say you know just the whole adventure, cycling northern tier coast to coast route equally. And then you know, I think, the advent of bikepacking routes and bikepackingcom, with so many people kind of learning and exploring routes on those websites and kind of taking the traditional touring and turning that into sort of a bikepacking slash exploration type. Things have also been really important for us and we just see so much more traffic than you know five or ten years ago. But to your point, you know, we start seeing. You know, as soon as the pass opens we start seeing folks trickle in that are starting the northern tier from anacortes and we're usually day three or four. So usually if things aren't working well, we're kind of the first place for fixing such things.

Joe Brown: 45:32

So we get to see a lot of different folks and usually try to figure out what they're doing and why they're doing it and stuff. It's a really fun environment and that group of people is really kind of near and dear to us. It's just a really fun thing to see and there's there's more than you think. Some days there'll be half dozen folks kind of trickling through throughout the day and uh, I think it's. I think those are important because those routes, those, those pre-curated routes, are important just because economically, on one hand, but it you know, similar to I think you could attest they just make something that's palatable and already figured out for people, for routes. So I think, as people have more free time, we just see more people using it and it's great to see.

Tom Butler: 46:24

It's kind of fun. I would imagine that you get to meet people from all over the world because of that.

Joe Brown: 46:30

Yeah, and still have and still have friendships as a result, and we get Instagram and Facebook posts and tags from people that have either finished their trip or have done subsequent trips and, much like you're wearing your favorite sweatshirt there, we'll see jerseys from all over the world. It's really fun.

Tom Butler: 46:50

That's cool. I want to switch gears a little bit. I think you do some coaching, is that right?

Joe Brown: 46:56

Correct.

Tom Butler: 46:56

Yeah, and I'm wondering if you could talk about that. What appeals to you about doing coaching? What kind of motivates you to do that?

Joe Brown: 47:04

Well, I'm an educator by profession and runs in my family and I I I love interacting with people that way for two reasons. One is it's super rewarding and second I learned something by doing that. So I coach and we have others that assist, both mountain bike skills and gravel, and then we also do cross-country ski coaching during the winter. For me it's. You know, there's so many people who kind of buy the tool, ie a high-end mountain bike, and then try to figure out how to adapt to that bike on whatever set of trails or trail networks or wherever they're riding but they're not necessarily proficient at it.

Joe Brown: 47:58

So there's this gap of potential. They're not super confident, but they just spent a ton of money so they're gonna go ride the bikes. For me, it's an opportunity for people to be safer, make the sport more enjoyable, and then they just have a way better experience and it validates the purchase they made and they're committed to the sport Right.

Joe Brown: 48:25

And then all of a sudden there's so many people that come in and like you know, I basically just ride two track, but I want to buy a bike that will allow me to do these other things.

Joe Brown: 48:38

In the back of my mind I'm like, well, maybe the best thing is to sort of develop those skills and then you basically buy the tool that allows the marriage of those two to make for a better experience. But people don't always do it that way, right? It's easier to just spend the money and get the thing, and then you sort of figure out how to become more proficient, right? So from my perspective, it's just a really necessary and good opportunity to, in pretty simple terms, opportunity to, in pretty simple terms, ensure that somebody has a safer, better experience that allows them to really flourish as a mountain biker or a gravel rider. So it's and it's a lot of fun. I I can't tell you how many times you know, someone comes in, we spend a few sessions together. They literally couldn't turn without putting a foot down and all of a sudden they're on in-slope turns and balancing their body more confident. They're riding trails that they really couldn't have imagined, you know, in months prior. So it's just fun to see that progression.

Tom Butler: 49:47

It's kind of interesting. As you're talking, I'm thinking about, I feel that as I get older, my reflexes are slowing down, for sure, and so, you know, there is a hesitation to challenge myself in certain ways, and I think part of that's smart, you know. Know I don't heal as fast as I used to.

Joe Brown: 50:14

But I think part of that is, you know, a skill set, and it sounds like what you're talking about is that there's, you know, there's skills that can be learned yeah, yeah, I think the skills can be learned and they can be learned in a fairly simple and progressive way, right, I think you know, not everybody wants to sign up and be taught something when they're have been doing it for a while. But the reality is I mean, think about how many, how much trails have changed over the years, right, and bikes have changed over the years. Right, and bikes have changed over the years. But I would argue that most of us aren't necessarily changing proportionately in terms of what our comfort level is, our skills.

Joe Brown: 51:03

So there becomes this sort of disconnect over time, like, wow, I have this amazing. I'm not really using it because I don't feel like I can do certain technical things on the bike and so that's holding me back. So then I end up going on trails that are comfortable to me but they're not necessarily commensurate with the abilities of the bike. So I think those learned skills, to your term, kind of brings the rider to the bike's capacity, right. Most of the time it's in our head, right, we tell ourselves like I had a scary experience on Trail X, I can't do that, I don't want to get hurt, I don't want to go to the emergency room, I don't want to have that lack of confidence hold me back either. So how do I get there? So sort of unpacking some of those bad habits and adding a few more tools to the toolbox really I think is a is a inexpensive and really effective way to just enjoy mountain biking a whole lot more.

Tom Butler: 52:14

I think that's really well said. Now I'm curious about one thing your partner, Julie yeah, has a background in advocacy.

Joe Brown: 52:23

Yes.

Tom Butler: 52:24

And I'm wondering about an opportunity to pursue advocacy as a business owner. Do you, do you see that?

Joe Brown: 52:33

We see it and we think it's 100% necessary. You know, we've seen other business owners come and go in the Valley who aren't involved in advocacy or aren't necessarily investing in the community as well as perhaps they should or could. And we're very community-minded people, both Julie and I, and in a small place we all wear a lot of hats right. So I serve as the president of the Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance Methow chapter. I serve on the state board, julie's involved in the housing trust, the Methow Valley Trails Collaborative, so we're all involved in things that help our community to be better. And all of us are involved on many levels in our community and to me it just seems like one goes with the other right. So we're not doing it because we want our business to be more successful. That's maybe a side benefit, but it's really our duty as leaders in this place to make this environment and community as good as it can. I just think that's part of what we need to do to make sure that we have the best place to live.

Tom Butler: 54:04

Love it, absolutely love it. What are your thoughts about the future of cycling, either locally or across the US? Do you feel good about it? Do you feel like there's some real challenges that could sink it? What's your thoughts?

Joe Brown: 54:20

I'm pretty cautiously optimistic on that front and I'm kind of disconnecting the bicycle industry from bicycling and what that means as a recreational opportunity for people generally, because I think those are two separate things in a way. But think about how many people got on bikes during the pandemic. I don't even know what that number is, but it's big and sure. Maybe some of those people aren't using those bikes as much as they thought, but the reality is we have a lot of space. People are a little bit crunched for time, but people have time and people have bikes, and bikes are pretty darn accessible. They don't have to be an exclusive thing and I just think there's so much opportunity out there for even if a small fraction of those people use their bikes and have a healthier lifestyle, or maybe some of those people are commuting and not using their car, using their car, or maybe some people are just enjoying mountain biking or gravel riding or bikepacking, whatever their thing is. Even if that's a small percentage that has a big number of people. The other side is there is so much money that has been put into infrastructure, not just in Washington state but, I think, nationally right Go to. Maybe this isn't the best example, but for what we're talking about. But go to Bentonville, arkansas, like everything that has any possibility of being a bike trail has been made into a bike trail. I'm not advocating, for that's what we want in the world, but point is there has been a lot of money and resources put into infrastructure, right. So go to most small communities. One of the things that they have now usually is a pump track or a skate park.

Joe Brown: 56:28

There are things that involve bikes in lots of places, you know. I'll use a local example. That I think is awesome. Our local elementary, middle and high school campus actually has a dedicated almost five mile long single track trail network that was built for students and the public alike to enjoy, right, I mean, that's how school should be in my book, right, like you can go out at lunch and take a lap on single track, or you can go afterwards, or teachers can, as a group, go ride laps before school or after school or whatnot. So integrating that into our normal lives and have those opportunities is great, and we're just seeing more and more of that. People want to have happy, healthy lives, right, and I just think the bikes will prevail over time. It's just such a great, efficient, fun environment with so much support that we're seeing moving forward.

Tom Butler: 57:36

Well, I would vote for turning anything that can be turned into a bike trail into a bike trail. So, you know, understood. Do you have anything personally coming up as far as bike adventures and in the future?

Joe Brown: 57:52

Man, good question. I just turned 56 years old and I just finished a full season of doing a lot of adventuring, like a lot more than I have been doing. So and I'm only bringing up what I did this year because it sort of defines what I'm doing moving forward. So a lot of racing and a lot of hours this year and right now I'm super enjoying just relaxing a little bit, doing some focusing on some business things and just riding for fun. So I don't really have anything planned too much.

Joe Brown: 58:28

We here in the Met how during the, the winter, we do a lot of fat biking, so we groom about 40 miles of single track. So I always look forward to this time of year where I can put up my regular bikes and then get out the fat bikes and just, uh, really lean into that and enjoy it. It's just a ton of fun and something different. So that's going to be my plan, at least through March, and between now and then I'll kind of see what 2025 holds for adventures. We always, julie and I usually do a spring and a fall type two trip, meaning we try to do adventures and a vacation all jumbled up into one challenging thing that we call a vacation maybe not the best approach forever, but we still tend to do that. So we'll be planning for some fun adventure in the spring, I'm sure now do you guys rent fat bikes.

Tom Butler: 59:28

We do yeah yeah, so that sounds like a pretty special place to have that experience to come and rent a fat bike and just experience it that way yeah, it's.

Joe Brown: 59:41

You know, on one hand, yep, it's a bike you use the term earlier in a conversation, it's just a. But it's its own discipline, right? So, having firm, grippy snow and a nice winding, fun trail, you know, when it's cold and sunny out, it's a pretty special experience that not many people get to enjoy, you know, on a daily basis for sure.

Tom Butler: 1:00:07

Awesome. Well, I appreciate so much, joe, you coming on and I'm really glad I stopped in at MetTal Cycling and Sport and reached out and your willingness to be on here. This has been a fun conversation and I was really curious and I got just a lot of information. I know I could go on here, but I know you've got a shop to attend to there, so thanks so much for joining me.

Joe Brown: 1:00:35

Well, thank you, tom, and super pleasure. You know, we kind of live our lives underneath our own little rock here, so it's nice to kind of come out and see the bigger world and participate in conversations, and it's just been a pleasure.

Tom Butler: 1:00:52

Take care now.

Joe Brown: 1:00:53

Okay, thank you, tom.

Tom Butler: 1:01:03

There was something really appealing to me about escaping to a small town like Winthrop and opening a bike shop, but the truth is that I really enjoy being close to Seattle and I know I would miss all that a city offers. It would be an incredible thing to be able to start a world-class gravel and mountain bike event in Winthrop. While I doubt I will ever do this, it will be fun to talk to people about it and brainstorm how it could actually happen. If any of you know of a big cycling event that takes place somewhere that doesn't have a bunch of lodging like in Winthrop, I would love to hear about it, no matter if you spend your bike time on the pavement or if you are someplace like Winthrop with 40 miles of off-road bike trails. I hope you are having awesome cycling experiences and remember age is just a gear change.