Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season three, episode two Chicagoans who Bike and I'm your host, tom Butler. Welcome back to the podcast and thanks for tuning in. Before I get into this week's conversation, here's a brief update on my journey. Last week I shared I was going on a backpacking trip for the first time in 30 years. It was understandable that I got a couple of questions about the wisdom of attempting a hike. Coming off the problem I talked about with my knees, I did make sure that I could bail on the trip if I I talked about with my knees. I did make sure that I could bail on the trip if I experienced any pain with my knees. So I feel like I was being responsible. Fortunately, I didn't have any pain at all. For me, the most rewarding part of the trip was that, while I was the oldest person on the trip, I had no problem handling the challenge. Granted, it wasn't a big challenge, but we did gain 900 feet over a mile as part of the hike. I was so happy that I didn't struggle, even though I had about 30 pounds on my back. To me, this was a huge testament to what cycling has done for me over the last two years. First of all, the 30 pounds of the pack is less than the amount of weight I have lost in two years and, secondly, my legs felt really strong. In fact, I had to slow down at one point on the way back out so that I was moving at a pace that worked. For others, that was just fantastic.

Tom Butler: 1:36

The fact that I felt absolutely no pain on the backpacking trip has led me to conclude that the knee pain that I experienced on my attempt to ride across Washington was bursitis. I experienced bursitis in my left knee before, and while the pain was intense for a couple days, it went away quickly and didn't come back. That is what I'm experiencing now, in my opinion. I've been nervous about getting back on the bike, but I spent a few days on the exercise bike without any pain. Yesterday I did go for a short ride and again I had no residual pain. Based on that, I'm going to steadily ramp up to longer and more difficult rides. I'm also going to go back to physical therapy and talk about bursitis. I thought after my last bike fitting I was done with bursitis, but I guess I need to revisit the issue. The next challenge I have is the 52 miles and 2,900 feet of elevation, of the Kitsap Color Classic coming up in just over a week. Last year when we did the ride, we got to the finish as they were starting to pack up. In fact, there's a hilarious picture in front of a half-deflated finish line arch that Cascade Bicycle Club staff were holding up for us. So this year I will be working hard to finish much faster. One thing on my side is that I wasn't on the Roubaix last year.

Tom Butler: 2:53

Judson, a longtime listener of the podcast, sent me some suggestions for rides in the Pacific Northwest for Season 3. Last week I mentioned that I have a goal for this season to do seven organized rides. I want three of them to be outside of Washington State. That way I'm expanding my cycling horizons After getting some encouragement from a listener. I'm pretty set on doing the Tour de Victoria, so that is one of the three not in Washington. And I'm looking at one of the suggestions from Judson he shared from the book 50 Rides Before you Die. Now I couldn't find that book anywhere. So, judson, you will have to put a post in the Cycling Horse 60 Strava Club to verify the book's title and author.

Tom Butler: 3:34

By the way, our Strava Club is a great place to interact and it is continuing to grow. In the book there is a section on the Sawtooth Mountains in Idaho. It seems awesome. It also sounded very challenging, but it looks like there is a bike tour company called Escape Adventures that does a five-day trip that includes the Sawtooth Mountains. On the trip you cover 265 miles and 8,000 feet of elevation. On TripAdvisor the tour has five out of five stars with 673 reviews. That seems pretty good to me. So that trip is on my list of things I want to do, but I need a bit more information to move it to the I am definitely doing it list. I'm finding it pretty easy to identify awesome rides and I'm happy about that. I don't think it'll be too long before I have a full itinerary for this season. Some of the most fun and interesting times for me are when I get a chance to just be at a trail asking people to share their cycling experiences.

Tom Butler: 4:40

Last week I stumbled onto a project that is all about sharing the stories of people who use their bike for transportation. The project is called Chicagoans who Bike and it is the work of Victor Coves. I reached out to Victor to get a behind-the-scenes view of the project and he agreed to join me on the podcast. Here is our discussion. I think creativity is the most important aspect of being human and today I am fortunate to be joined by a very creative person. Thank you, victor Coves, for joining me today. Thank you for having me. Victor is the creative mind behind Chicagoans who Bike. You can find the project at chiwhobike or c-h-i-w-h-Obike. I'll put that link in the show notes. Before we get talking about that project, can you talk about your earliest memories of the bicycle?

Viktor Köves: 5:36

Ooh. So my mother was big into biking. So I think even before I learned to ride, I learned to ride as a teenager. She was always biking around Chicago so that was like my association was. I always had this image of her like bike around the city and the first time I rode a bike was probably like early teens, maybe like when I was 12 or 13 and learning in Chicago. So just, I always associated biking to me. It's always like been in the city and I have a fond association of getting around Chicago on a bike.

Tom Butler: 6:09

That's cool I love to hear, like when parents just kind of bring their kids along and cycling becomes part of just the family dynamic. If you go to the project website you'll find a lot of pictures and you'll find comments from people and I just really was intrigued by it and somewhat jealous by it. You know, it's like I don't know if you'll get transplanted to different cities at the end of this project and start over, but it's really cool to get people's own comments and get a wide perspective on people who are on bikes in Chicago. I'm wondering what inspired you to create Chicagoans who Bike? And you talked about your early connection to cycling in Chicago, but what's your connection now to cycling in Chicago?

Viktor Köves: 7:01

Yeah, I mean, I think, the inspiration for me I like to joke that it was such a good idea that I assumed someone had already done it which is I bike around the city a lot. It's probably my primary mode of transportation. Chicago is very dense and I'm kind of on the north side in the Lincoln Square area where really like within a 15 minute bike ride I can probably access like 10 different coffee shops, 10 different bars. It's a very easy area to bike where I'm at. But Chicago in general is a pretty good biking city. It's flat and what inspired me is I would just go around the city and I would always see people on bikes who are really interesting. So sometimes it was like I stopped at a light.

Viktor Köves: 7:42

Once I saw someone in an Urban Aero which is like a big bucket bike and it was just two adults in urban arrow. It was like a guy kind of driving the urban arrow and a girl in the front. I was taking their picture and she just kind of smiled and waved and there's just kind of this beautiful mutual understanding of like you see someone on a strange bicycle and you see them and they see you and there's this moment of like you're like that's cool and they know that that's what you're thinking. And I thought like surely someone like does that and is like talking to bicyclists and talking about their experiences and the wide variety of people who are out there. But I didn't really see that. And there's a lot of great local journalism in Chicago. We're lucky to have Streets Blog Chicago, which does a lot of coverage of bike projects, bike advocacy, just really a rich media ecosystem. But I didn't see that kind of coverage and so I was like you know what? I want to get a camera for a while and this is kind of a good excuse. Let me just try this and kind of just see what happens.

Viktor Köves: 8:43

And I remember the first photos I did and I just recorded them on my phone, like I would just talk to someone, record on my phone and take a picture with my camera. And when I would write it down and cut it down, I was like this is amazing, like I would just talk to random people. I literally just approached a dad in a park once with his daughter and their turn bike and he just had so many thoughtful and beautiful things to say and I was like I think there's some there there. And you know, when I put it out there, just there was a really positive response from the biking community here in Chicago and it's just slowly grown, you know, building over time. But that's really what inspired me.

Viktor Köves: 9:22

And as for my personal connection to bike in Chicago, you know I have three bikes right now it really is my primary means of transportation. I don't own a car and I know that's not an option for everybody, but in my community like it's, like it is really eminently doable and it's something I really enjoy. Like I love biking around, I love seeing everything by bike. I'm a big foodie, so there's just something that really connects with me in biking around my city and getting to experience it.

Tom Butler: 9:50

Well, it's interesting to me. It doesn't sound like you have done a lot of photography projects before this, is that correct?

Viktor Köves: 9:58

That's correct. I've done absolutely zero photography projects before this.

Tom Butler: 10:01

Okay, but you are a creative person and I know that. Yeah, I think you're a coder, is that right?

Viktor Köves: 10:08

Yeah, yeah, software development is my day job.

Tom Butler: 10:11

So, you know, that's obviously creative in itself, but I, when I look at the photographs, I really liked the composition. Not that I'm a great photography critic, but I really was drawn in by the photos. So good for you. You know, I think maybe there's just a knack there or an eye there, because I think it's fantastic in photography on and off.

Viktor Köves: 10:41

So I used to have what was the term for it, like a point and zoom camera, so it didn't have interchangeable lenses but it had longer zoom and I always loved doing nature photography, birds and stuff. But I think this was my first time getting like a real, like a serious camera with lenses and learning about all that and it was like really a learning experience. And I can tell you that there's my. Some of my initial photos like don't look quite as good because there's like a lens I switched to that was like okay, this is the lens I need for portrait work. So I think it's really grown and developed and I think I can critique my own shots and see the things that like there's like.

Viktor Köves: 11:18

I can remember the first shot I took where I was like, okay, this looks really good, this is like what I want to look like. And there's some of the earlier ones where now I look at it and I'm like, oh, I could have done so much better. So I appreciate it. I think it's definitely. I've been doing it for a year now. I just published interview number 60. And every time I'm publishing maybe one or two photos. I've taken 100 or 200. So I have a wide selection of mistakes to choose from to find the one good shot.

Tom Butler: 11:53

What did you hope to achieve by this project and did it evolve over time, or do you feel like what you first set out to achieve is the same thing as now?

Viktor Köves: 11:58

Yeah, I think my vision and my goal has always been the same and it has been improving my work and the content that I create in service of that goal. So, to step back, I think my there are a few different goals, but I think one of the things is I like to tell people that people who bike, particularly and I say people who bike, I will say in travel, right, so people who bike around their city. And I say that because there's kind of a meme in the bike community that there's the avid cyclist who's like against bike lanes and is like bike lanes are silly, I'm fine, and what that really means is they like racing and they hit the trail. Most people who are going to the grocery store really would like infrastructure and there's like a commonality there. In a similar way, I find that if you're someone who bikes Chicago, you understand intuitively that, for example, biking is not a rich person thing, which somehow in certain circles is a common misconception. You know, I talk about biking or biking with kids or e-bikes or any of that, and people are like, oh, that's for rich people, but I know from my own experience that's not the case. And similarly, like the diversity of people who bike, like just the economic diversity, the age diversity, gender, race, like on every category, there are people who bike who look like you, I guarantee it. There may not be as many as a certain group, but there are people out there as a certain group, but there are people out there.

Viktor Köves: 13:26

And so my vision was kind of first, to challenge people who didn't bike, to see people who bike as, just like them, it's just a dad getting his kids to school, just like you are in your car, it's not some radical dude. A lot of people I interview actually have a car right, and they're just like yeah, I have a car, if I'm going to Wisconsin, I take the car, but if I'm going to my kid's middle school three miles away, I take the bike. So I think, trying to reach people and say, like there are people like you and they're out on their bike and they deserve protection, they deserve safety, but also to show the common threads of what people are concerned about, what people are thinking about in the biking community, and to really show that to people in power hopefully right and show them like, hey, if I've talked to 60 people and 56 of them mentioned safety, that's an issue, right, that's a big problem. So I think that's kind of the dual goals is like show the diversity of people who bike around Chicago and, I think, bike more generally and also show their concerns, like really like give people a voice.

Viktor Köves: 14:32

In a way that I like to say there's so much car content in America ads, but it's also the YouTube channels, the podcast, the Instagram reels. If you're a young person on Instagram, you probably see the walk-up shot where they walk up to a nice car and they're like oh my God, that's a nice car. What do you do? And so I like to joke too that I'm trying to do marketing for the bicycle. I'm trying to put out there that there are cool people out there who you should look up to, who are there biking, who are living a fantastic, amazing life, and I think that's like I'm trying to fill a void there, where there isn't really as much content compared to cars well, I think that's an awesome goal.

Tom Butler: 15:16

You know, I I would like everyone that drives a car that interacts with a bicycle to see that content and to go in and read the quotes and to to see the humans that are under the bike helmets or on the bike saddle, whatever, so that as they're passing them, you know they, they're, they're thinking about that. But I'm curious, like, who is the target, target audience? Have you found in comments that people have made who have seen it, or do you have a feel of how the audience has developed?

Viktor Köves: 16:05

a lot of bike advocacy groups. My target audience is people who do not bike right. Maybe it's people who are nervous to bike in Chicago. Maybe it's people who never have, never will. Whatever the case may be, it's people who I think, like haven't heard this type of message before. I think what I know and what I recognize, that there's a natural draw of if you're a biker. There's a catharsis that comes out of reading some of these stories. There's like a.

Viktor Köves: 16:32

I think a lot of people in the bike community appreciate the interviews that I put out because they often feel themselves in those stories, right. They finally hear someone say like yes, like I've been intimidated by a driver, or like I had this scary like road condition or whatever it may be, to feel like seen. So I think the challenge there is. I don't think those are the people who need to hear my message necessarily, right? I don't think the person you know who is also impacted by road rage is the one who needs to read that story. It's someone who maybe, you know, has done that before, that needs to read that story and see how that impacts someone and how it stays with them. But I'm kind of okay with that. I think there's a beauty in that, that catharsis that provides.

Viktor Köves: 17:11

But I'm always encouraging people in all my calls to action. I try and say, like send this to someone who's not biking, send this to someone in your life who drives around Chicago, or send it to someone who's considering biking. So a lot of times I ask people like what tips would you have for someone who's scared to start biking Chicago? And I have some great reels that are just like people explain like okay, start slow, like here's how you do it. So I'm trying to reach people who are maybe on the fence and are in that persuadable camp to maybe just try biking and try for a few trips or if they're, you know, for whatever reason they have to drive everywhere to just at least see and understand that people biking are just people and they're just living their lives they're not trying to get in your way and to see, like how big that power difference can be when you're driving a big car versus a bike.

Tom Butler: 18:02

You mentioned that started out with you just noticing people and going up and talking to them. Is that still kind of your subject selection methodology or do you have more of a process?

Viktor Köves: 18:17

Yeah, so I was originally inspired by Humans of New York, which is a pretty popular photo blog and, to the best of my understanding, he approaches people on the street and I think that was the vision I had in my head. But the thing is, as my work has evolved, the time constraint, the amount of time I need from people, is not really compatible with just approaching people on the street. But also there's just a level of time commitment of just being out on the street like this is not my day job, but that's not really as efficient as I kind of would need it to be. So these days I'm fortunate enough to have an interview intake form and people reach out to me and every single social media platform. I plug that intake form.

Viktor Köves: 18:57

I make really clear like these are the criteria to apply, which is basically you live in Chicago city limits, you bike for travel, and then people come to me and I, you know, I think I, I generally I've been at a good rate of the amount of interview requests I'm getting is matching my cadence. So I generally, I think, have basically talked to everyone who's asked to talk to me, just usually several months later, and then I try and just make sure that I balance out the diversity of people. I'm publishing in kind of sequential order, if that makes sense. So if one month I'm talking to only people from the north side of the city, you know I'm not going to publish all of those interviews in sequence, I'm going to spread them out with interviews from other parts of the city to make sure that I try and keep it as balanced as I can, which is a tricky little thing. But in general I think I talk to anyone who wants to talk to me.

Tom Butler: 19:50

I think it's great that people are recognizing the value of the project and reaching out. I think that says that you're achieving the goals that you set out, because people want to be featured, they want to tell their story, so that's awesome.

Viktor Köves: 20:07

Yeah, well, it's a, it's a big honor, and I think it is most of the people. When I tell them they're in yours live, that's what they say it's like. Thank you for letting me tell my story, cause I think there is something to that that people just want to be heard. I think that's just a universal need people have. But I think you know biking in particular. There's like in your community you feel heard, you understand that someone else on a bike understands you. But to have that broadcast a little broader out, I think really it's that similar catharsis for people feeling like, okay, like this is out there.

Tom Butler: 20:40

I want to talk a bit about photography and you know I'm interested in you talking about do you have concepts now? You talked about that. When you look at it and you kind of evaluate yourself, you see, okay, I wish I would have done that differently and learning and improving. I'm wondering if you have a concept now, if you could capture kind of that, the concept now when you're behind the camera and what you're trying to capture in the photo.

Viktor Köves: 21:14

I think there's a few things. The main one is I think I published this, you know, maybe in some of the earlier posts or maybe I mentioned this on and off. But something that people might not know is everyone chooses their own location, with a few exceptions. Where I was stationed at a bike shop and I interviewed people there. I asked people to tell me what is a place that means something to you, whether it's about your biking journey, whether it's just in your life in general. But when people are posed somewhere, it's sometimes, I think people are like wow, that's like a really cool setting, that's a really cool combo, or like their outfit matches. I'm like that was all of them and I think that's really magical and really special. I think otherwise, it's just making sure that people's humanity really comes through.

Viktor Köves: 22:01

So there are a few shots where you know people prefer to have a helmet on, and this was something I played with like there were a few people. There was like a dad in my area who was like I want mine with my helmet on, because I always want, I always wear my helmet. I want people to get the wrong message and I took a few shots. I looked at my camera. I was like that's not working. Like there's shadow on your face you can't see, like it's like you're obstructed, right, you're closed off because a helmet is meant to protect you, but it's also like it's going to sound a little philosophical, but when you're wearing your helmet it's also kind of closing you off emotionally and you can't connect with someone as deeply. So every time I'd have someone take that helmet off and I was like, yes, like this is, I can see you and you can see me, and we're like locked in a little bit more. I think.

Viktor Köves: 22:48

Otherwise it's just, you know, trying to get the lighting right, making sure that people's faces are good, and I try and do closeups. So I try and do one wide shot that's them and their bike, and I try and do a closeup really bring you in and make you feel a little more intimate with that person. Cause I think that's the duality is, some bikes are huge and I I do not try and capture the whole bike, like there's some very long bikes and it's just not practical, but I always want to make sure that you know, you you see someone's face and you you connect with them. I think that's the biggest goal. So, like making sure the location is a spot they picked, so you know like they're there for a reason, there's something there and you understand a bit more about that person based on the fact that they went with their bike, their outfit, to this spot and they said this is where I want to be.

Viktor Köves: 23:37

And yeah, I think just trying to be true to those dreams and those visions is, I think, really important to me. So I try and capture people as they are. I don't use any lighting, I don't use any reflectors, and I'm sure that could elevate my shots in some way, but I try and make it just kind of like they're here in a spot that they often frequent, and just as they are with their bike.

Tom Butler: 24:00

It is interesting that there is kind of two subjects to the photos. There's the person or the people, and then there's also the bike. It sounds like you're prioritizing the person over the bike. I think that's a great decision, but at the same time it is fun to see the bike in the shot with the person as well. Absolutely.

Viktor Köves: 24:22

Well, and I think that's something I realized too. So some of the I try my best to always remember to have a person step in front of their bike, but some of the shots that alternates, I think there's some you know pros and cons and some dynamism there, but even there's something I noticed of like there was one shot where it was a family and they had two bikes and I had them lined up a certain way and the sizing ended up a little strange and playing with perspective in that way. But I always like my goal is you're a person who bikes. So the name of the project is not Chicago cyclists or anything like that, because I want to avoid the baggage with any of those terms. It's just, it's just people, it's just people who bike, that's it.

Viktor Köves: 25:01

You know, whether they call themselves a cyclist or not is not my business, it's not, doesn't matter. The point is they're out here on our streets biking and so it's really like trying to frame the person and the bike is their tool right, and it's a tool they often love. It's a tool that some of these bikes are custom built and they spent hundreds of hours on. Sometimes they don't care, it's a beater. They bought it 20 years ago and if it runs, it works. But I always try and prioritize the person first and let them show themselves.

Tom Butler: 25:30

I want to pull up a few photographs here that kind of caught my eye. If you'd talk a little bit about them. The first one is number eight. It seems like there's a decision made here that their name is not front and center on this. Can you talk about that first?

Viktor Köves: 25:51

Well, so I'll say actually I don't publish names period, so people may choose to associate themselves with their interviews. So oftentimes someone might retweet it under their own account or comment on Instagram and be like thank you for talking to me, but this was pretty inspired by Humans of New York. I try and keep it anonymous, so it's more like trying to connect you to their story and it's not necessarily like photojournalism like this is John Doe on this corner. This is his view. It's a little more abstract in that Um. So that's kind of a choice I made early on, um. But yeah, this is a good friend of mine now Um, I'm like he's associated himself with it.

Viktor Köves: 26:36

But this is my, my friend, rick Um. He's a big bike advocate. He does a lot of amazing bike advocacy work and he has this beautiful dragon fruit turn uh GSD and he has this beautiful dragon fruit turn GSD and that bike has seen more wear and tear than any GSD. He has put like logs and like that thing has probably carried 500 pounds and so he was one of my natural like. This was someone I knew, that I knew I had to talk to because he's just out there. He does a lot of outreach too that I don't think we talked about in his interview, where he like feeds the homeless and will bring like hundreds of burritos on his bike. So it was a really cool person to talk to and I love taking that photo. And he was a natural behind the camera too, as you can kind of see.

Tom Butler: 27:21

Well, this photo is a little bit different because he's on the bike and he's not riding the bike, but he's like placing himself on a bike. It looks like he could be sitting there for the afternoon just chatting people, you know, sitting on this bike, very relaxed. Was that a conscious decision to capture him that way?

Viktor Köves: 27:44

You know, I told him to do whatever he was most comfortable with, you know, and he tried a few different poses for me and I think some people are a little more camera shy and I have to give them a little more direction. I'm like, okay, relax. Like you know, you have to coach him a little bit more. He was like a natural, like he gave me like 20 great shots, Like he was just very comfortable, and I think that just reflects of like he's really outgoing person. He does a lot of like social events like this. This is his like daily workhorse, Like he has put thousands of miles on that machine.

Tom Butler: 28:17

And I think that actually captures his attitude really, really beautifully and really well. The other thing about this photo is it's got Lake Michigan in the background and it looks very coastal, and I think that that is kind of an aspect that maybe people don't think a lot about when they think about Chicago is there's this coastline that you can cycle along?

Viktor Köves: 28:39

Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know if you've had the pleasure to visit Chicago and bike our lakefront trail, but the lake is actually something that comes up a lot to the degree that it's been a little bit challenging because a lot of people want their photos with the lake.

Viktor Köves: 28:52

But Chicago has this lakefront trail.

Viktor Köves: 28:54

I think it's like 20 or 30 miles north and south on the lake. So if you are going north or south and you're pretty on the eastern part of the city, the lakefront is this really natural, like kind of a bike highway for lack of a better term because it's a fully, you know, off the road trail and it's just like people use it, like it'll take you downtown. People use it commuting. It's very busy during commuter traffic, Tourists use it to get like a view of the city and get beautiful photos. So the lake is really a central nexus for biking in Chicago in a way that I think is really beautiful and really cool. I think as bikers we kind of end up drawn to the water in Chicago in a way that I think is really unique to both our geography and also our bike infrastructure. That is probably the longest north-south fully protected. Actually, I'm certainly saying that that's the fully protected north-south longest trail, so it's just a central thoroughfare for people well on my list of things to do is bike the drive.

Tom Butler: 29:56

So I do, you know, want to experience that someday it's a beautiful time.

Viktor Köves: 30:02

I would highly recommend it.

Tom Butler: 30:03

Anyone considering it bike the drive is one of the coolest, coolest times you can be in chicago, so I'd highly recommend it the next one that I'd like you to talk about is number 15 to me just thought this was such a great representation of what you talked about earlier is that this person, I'm guessing, probably would not identify herself as a cyclist, you know, and that bike looks very functional. It's a cargo bike with a couple kids in seats and I think I see a drum in that and it's just such a cool shot. And you know this story of where are you going with the drum and everything, and can you talk a bit about that?

Viktor Köves: 30:51

photo. Yeah, this is a mom who lives in the Hyde Park neighborhood of Chicago, which, for those not from Chicago, it's Obama's home neighborhood. It's on like the south side, kind of in the middle, near U Chicago. And yeah, this is an urban aero bike. For anyone who knows their cargo bikes, it's a great kind of bucket style e-bike. And, yeah, she's just a mom who likes hauling her kids around in her urban aero and I think you're right, I think it's like you can see, she's very practically dressed, like wearing like a, I guess I would say, like a sweater cardigan, looking sweater, and like a skirt and boots. And this is.

Viktor Köves: 31:28

It was published in November, probably shot around the same time, maybe in October, so it was, you know, a little chilly, but you can still get out there and bike and you can still do it with kids and, yeah, they're just having a great old time.

Viktor Köves: 31:38

I think they'd come from some different activity or event because they had like some signs or something, I think too, and their drum. And, yeah, she really loved that bike and I think the practicality of it, like you said, like especially with kids, you know you're juggling snacks, water, and I think she talked about like just the benefit of that. So, reading from that that they're super cozy, they can have their toys and their blanket, she can haul a lot of stuff. So she was a big fan of that bike and I think it really that's what I want to show people is like you do not have to stop biking because you have kids. You know you might just need a different bike, you might need a bike that can accommodate that lifestyle, but there's people out there doing it and they're having a great time and their kids are happier for it too. So it was a great, great shot and really pleasure to talk to her and one of the kids rock in a unicorn helmet too, so that's fantastic.

Viktor Köves: 32:33

Yeah, I love their. You know, you can see their person. I think the boy is a little too. He probably didn't pick his helmet. Maybe he did, but I think he's a little too young. But I know that girl most most certainly picked her helmet. And the one thing I'll say too, to add a little context you can probably see there's like three bikes in the background and this was at the start of Chicago's critical mass, it was a little bit before it. So she was actually coming out to that event. So she was coming out to this kind of like bike party, bike jam kind of event that happens monthly in Chicago's downtown and kind of goes around. So it's kind of a little Easter egg there that I think people in the bike community will have a feeling. Be like I think I know why they're there.

Tom Butler: 33:14

And then the last one is number 48. Now, this is a bike that is a different kind of machine than the mom taking her bikes to activities machine clipless pedals, shoes with cleats, everything. Can you talk a bit about this photo?

Viktor Köves: 33:35

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll use this man's name because he has it on his jersey. So it's right there, front center. This is Mr Bobby Berry just an amazing figure. So he is on. This photo was taken at the Major Taylor Trail, just like a Southside Trail. I think this was at, I want to say, 111th on the Major Taylor Trail, where there's this beautiful mural behind him and he is really just a steward of this trail. So there's a board that meets for this trail and does projects around it, activities, all that sort of stuff. So he's very influential in that community.

Viktor Köves: 34:10

So you might think, looking at this bike like this is a guy who like races all the time. He's a triathlete. I think I actually asked him I don't know if I got into the interview but I don't think he actually races. He just like loves bikes and tinkering with them. I think he has a bunch of them and this whole bike is like custom and he did a bunch of stuff to it. But he just loves hitting the trail and lives right off this beautiful trail and likes to ride it up and down and really it's just like a community figure, like he is just always out there. And when I published him. People recognized him because he's just a guy who's out there and also I'll say, you know, I'd encourage people to read it Interview number 48, like you said, it's a really moving story.

Viktor Köves: 34:51

So unfortunately, as we were booking the interview, he had to reschedule and the first time he rescheduled it was because his wife was in the hospital and the second time he rescheduled was because his wife had passed. I was like you don't have to talk to me, do whatever you want to do. And he said no, I still want to do this interview. This is really important to me and I feel really honored to do that. And, for people who are curious, I bike to wherever the interview is, so it was quite a haul from the northwest side of Chicago down there. It was probably a 25-mile bike ride to get down there, but it was a really incredible and really beautiful story that his wife got him back into cycling and when we closed our interview he said that he knew that she was looking down on him and smiling and excited to see the interview. So it was really, I think, probably one of the most memorable and beautiful interviews I've ever done.

Tom Butler: 35:45

I think that is beautiful and what a way for him to honor her memory really to be talking about something that he mentions. The first line is that she got him back into cycling in 2014. And then later on, he talks about if it wasn't for cycling, he probably wouldn't be here. He'd probably have some lifestyle condition, health condition, that lifestyle related health condition that would have done him in.

Viktor Köves: 36:15

so, you know, for him to do that interview and talk about it, I I do think that's special yeah, no, it's really like I'm honored to tell everyone's stories, but I think this one was really where I was like I wanted to make sure that I felt like he was really happy with his story and he was really happy with his pictures. Generally I don't let people like preview their photos, but I sent some to him and and I wanted to make sure that like he liked him and I really like you'll notice, with his shots I'm actually a lot lower to the ground, so there's something you can do with camera work of like if you're lower, someone is larger, kind of larger than life and more imposing, and I think that really felt like it fit him and his stature and his community. So it was really just beautiful, beautiful interview. And also, just, you know, he's kitted out in Chicago gear. That's something that people always comment on.

Viktor Köves: 37:06

I think he's wearing like six Chicago gear. That's something that people always comment on. I think he's wearing like six Chicago flags and I think that was like that's what I mean. There's things that don't fit into the written interview that you just see and you can tell this is a man that loves his city. You know he's talking about biking. He talked about sweeping off glass off the trail and even if that didn't make it to the written portion, you can like see it, and how this man is dressed and the spot that he chose, that he really is deeply passionate about his community. I love that.

Tom Butler: 37:32

Well, I think your strategy of having them pick a spot I mean the background of this photo is a little bit talking about Major Taylor as a person, and then a drawing of Major Taylor as a person and then a drawing of Major Taylor and it just adds so I mean it literally adds depth to this whole shot, historically and visually and everything to you know to have that in the background. What are some of the common themes that have come out as you've been talking to people?

Viktor Köves: 38:09

Yeah, I think there's the positives and the negatives, and so I'll start with the positives. I think everyone I talk to realizes that biking is such a cool way to get to know a neighborhood. It is a very intimate means of transportation. I remember explaining to a friend of mine who primarily drives about you know how cyclists might run a red light. This is not something I do, I'm not going to comment on that, but I said that. Well, the thing is because he was like well, how do you, you know, aren't you scared? I was like well, think like you're a pedestrian, you know, and you creep out six inches and you can hear, right, you're connected to the pavement, like, especially if it's, you know, if one lane of traffic is stopped, you're going to hear if there's cars coming even a mile away. Basically, and in a similar way, when people bike through neighborhoods in Chicago, you can like, smell things, like sometimes I'm like should I stop? Like that smells really good, like that is a good Indian place I can tell I'm going to have to come back here. And I think that's something that people mention. Is that, like you see shops for Valentine's Day or for Halloween? Her kids sat in the bike and handed out to all the crossing guards. I think it was Valentine's and that's just so cool. There have been many times that I'm biking in my neighborhood where I'll see someone else, either on a bike or just walking, and they'll see me, I'll see them and there's just this intimacy that comes with that. It's really like you're speedwalking, essentially, and I think that is so cool and it makes you so connected to a city in a way that you know I drive on occasion and you're kind of passing through, like, even if you're stuck in traffic, you're still actively paying attention to the thing right in front of you and you're quite alert. Biking, but especially if you're taking a more slow residential route, you kind of can breathe a little bit more and you can engage with the environment around you. Versus in driving, it's just you know you're tunneled in, you're not going to hear just music outside as much, you're not going to smell stuff. So I think that's a big positive one.

Viktor Köves: 40:27

I think, on the negative, it's safety, and I think that's something that you know. It breaks my heart that almost every person mentions, you know, either feeling worried about something or I've had several people talk to me who've had some sort of accident, feeling worried about something, or I've had several people talk to me who've had some sort of accent, whether it's during, whether it's someone harassing them. I had someone explain to me that I had to ask them again to make sure that they're like yeah, this guy yelled at me for turning left. I was like what? And it was like, yeah, because he had to wait 10 seconds. So he got upset and tailed me and yelled at me and like told me some horrible things.

Viktor Köves: 41:04

So I think those are like the two big ones. It's like biking is really joyful, but also just the built environment and the culture really encourages these situations that are very dangerous. And even, you know, I have a story that's like with a mom who, like she had to leave the bike lane because it was flooded and a guy like close past her and like retaliated at her. So I think that's kind of the dual dichotomies is that people have this deep positivity and this deep sorrow, I think with the state of biking in Chicago.

Tom Butler: 41:36

Chicago is a huge city, you know, and how do you feel it's going? Do you think that there's a commitment to improving infrastructure? Is it stagnant? How do you see that it is?

Viktor Köves: 41:55

complicated, so I think it is in any place. I think one of the biggest challenges with a lot of cities I have watched some content about Philadelphia and I can see they have similar issues is Chicago has wards, which Chicago is divided into 50 wards and they're essentially to some degree little fiefdoms where the aldermen get to make certain low-level decisions about that community and the alderman is like the smallest level of representative and they serve on city council. So, for example, if you wanted to build a new building and you need a zoning change, it goes through your alderman and so the alderman kind of is meant to speak for the community. But what that also means is that if you wanted a bike lane on a street, the person making that decision is the alderman. So it's very fragmented and the level of bike infrastructure is really variable in the city. You know in Chicago where there's a lot of bike infrastructure and it's kind of this virtuous cycle where there's a lot of bike infrastructure, so there's a lot of people asking for bike infrastructure, so the alderman's like dialed in and there's more Versus. There's parts of the South Side where I've heard aldermen say yeah, well, no one bikes in my community, so like I don't, why would I build that here? Who is that for? And I'm like I know people bike in your community. I've biked in your community. I see people out there. They're just off down the sidewalk because you didn't build anything for them.

Viktor Köves: 43:25

So it's improving and I think it's gotten better and better over time. I think there's kind of a growing coalition. I think there's a lot of big activist groups that are helping raise visibility, but also, frankly, just there's a combination of things of like driving is getting more and more expensive it's never cheap to own a car in a major metro, but it's not getting cheaper and also our public transit system has unfortunately really deteriorated. So there's a lot of people I know who used to rely on the CTA and now it's just like well, there's all these delays or it's not coming as frequently, and they pick up biking and they're like you know what?

Viktor Köves: 44:03

Why would I take two buses? It'll take me 40 minutes and it could take longer. Or I can bike and it's 20 minutes. So I think you know it's getting better. I think there's still a lot of work to do and I think the biggest thing I would say is it's really unfortunately, like a lot of things in Chicago a very segregated experience and I think a lot of the people I talked to experience that is. They're, like you know, I've lived on the North side, on the South side really different biking experiences and I think that's something that's really challenging and that I grapple with both in my coverage and also just as I'm getting to interviews. It's like there's just can be very dramatic shifts in the level of investment that's put into bike and bike infrastructure.

Tom Butler: 44:45

I'm just so curious to see places like Chicago. You know, 10 years from now, what it will look like if cyclists have been heard, because you mentioned something there, and I think the truth of the matter is you don't know how much it will get used until it's built.

Tom Butler: 45:00

You know, you just can't say I don't know how much it'll get used until it's built. You just can't say I don't have anybody here biking when it's not safe for them to go out and try to bike. So I'm really again 10 years from now to see Chicago and the changes is going to be really interesting.

Viktor Köves: 45:16

Absolutely Well, and I think I'll say too, one thing that a few of my interviews have mentioned is I think Divi, like BikeShare, really helped because bike shares in every community, and so I think there's a natural like oh well, if there's a bike share station there, then we should probably have a bike lane. But also, I think some businesses are starting to see it too. You know, there's a lot of great bike events now where it's like there's like a bike event called sweet roll. That is just they go to pastry shops and I think when a small business sees that and they're like oh, bikers are also people and they also have money to spend and I can accommodate them or I cannot then I think that can help change perspective and be like this is a nuisance. This is an opportunity for me of like.

Viktor Köves: 45:58

There's um the 606 trail in Chicago and that's like a rails to trails conversion, where it's like an elevated bike trail and every single stop along that trail. You know more and more businesses are opening up, rents are going up. You know pro and con as those neighborhoods suddenly see more investment and more opportunity because suddenly there's all these people who are biking there. They're tourists or whatever they might be and they're like oh well, where can I get some food, where can I get some coffee? So I think people are starting to, it's starting to click in their minds that it's not just like building something and that's it. This is like an opportunity and I'm hoping that starts to catch on.

Tom Butler: 46:35

Nice. I'm wondering about community engagement. Have any organizations reached out to you, or do you find organizations really receptive to the project? How does that work?

Viktor Köves: 46:48

Yeah, absolutely. So I've done a few kind of collaborations with like local bike shops. I've done some interviews at Working Bikes, which is a great local bike shop in Chicago. I did an interview and then a kind of sponsored project with Igor does my bike. It was like a local bike shop. And I've also worked with Femmes and Them's, which is a great woman and non-binary folks ride and I worked to interview some of their riders. So I think people are really receptive. I think they you know from what I've seen the community reaction is really positive.

Viktor Köves: 47:20

I think the challenge is that the work that I do really lends itself to being scheduled out in a specific spot that someone chose.

Viktor Köves: 47:31

And so I found that with those group rides it's like, oh well, I can talk to like four people at the end, but then all their photos are clustered and it's like maybe not in their community and similarly with like going to working bikes, I had like I think three interviews that came are clustered and it's like maybe not in their community and similarly with like going to working bikes, I had, like I think, three interviews that came out of that and the interviews were really cool, but I felt like something was missing where I was like even if they really like this bike shop, this probably isn't like the default spot that they maybe would have chosen. So I think it's challenging where I want to work more with folks. But I think it might be more a mutual promotion kind of thing. If I promote their work, they promote my work, then it would be like me going and doing interviews there just because of how I want to do that work, if that makes sense.

Tom Butler: 48:12

Well, I think that does make sense. And again, it's kind of part of the storytelling gets changed when you're forced into an environment rather than let them choose. Gets changed when you're forced into an environment rather than let them choose.

Viktor Köves: 48:28

What hope would you have for impacting cycling culture with this project? Yeah, I mean, I think my biggest dream is, like you know, there's some very bike-friendly aldermen in Chicago and I hope maybe one day if someone says something ridiculous in city council, they'll go. Well, you know you could check out this project. There's all sorts of people who bike Chicago and I promise there's some landmarks you'll recognize in your neighborhood. So I don't know if that will actually happen, but I think I know that some aldermen have seen my work and some other people in city government. So, like the Chicago Department of Transportation, folks like that.

Viktor Köves: 48:59

So my hope would be that people look at my work and challenge their own expectations when they're planning projects or streetscapes or things like that and think, okay, like is this really safe for all of these road users?

Viktor Köves: 49:16

Right, because I think if you really thought through some of these new road designs and you said, okay, what was it say for this dad and his two kids and a bunch bike, you go, you know they're in a door zone and there's no protection, maybe I wouldn't put a five-year-old there and I would hope that maybe that lends itself to a bit of improvement. And, yeah, and getting more people out on bikes. I think every single person I always leave room for an interviewee to tell me like anything else, anything you feel like we didn't cover, and almost every single person is like just get out there, get on your bike, try it. Like here's how you can try it, start with a park, like start slow. And you know, if I got 10 more people on bikes and I got one person to reconsider a street design, I think that would be a legacy enough.

Tom Butler: 50:04

Do you know if Mayor Brandon Johnson is a cyclist? By any chance.

Viktor Köves: 50:08

So he did. I think he is, I don't know to what extent so he's done a photo. I don't want to be rude, but he did a photo op, I guess I would say where he was biking a bike lane bike to City Hall. He did do bike the drive and had some photos on Instagram. So I would say I know that he bikes and from photos, bikers picked up on the fact that he knew where to position himself in the bike lane, like away from the door zone. So I take it he bikes. I have a feeling the mayor of Chicago probably doesn't bike a lot, simply, if not for any other reason than just the security concerns, and I would completely respect that. I would not want to be mayor of Chicago and be vulnerable in that way, frankly. So I know that he bikes sometimes, but I don't know the extent.

Tom Butler: 50:52

Well, maybe you need to reach out and feature him as a Chicagoan who bikes.

Viktor Köves: 51:00

Yeah, that would be one heck of an interview. I'll say that that would be a very cool opportunity. And I would also say and that's something I've thought about is how do I handle if a politician wanted to speak to me? I think I would ask some very different questions, frankly, because I think that's my responsibility. If I got that opportunity to, I would ask a little more challenging questions than I would ask your average person. Let me say I like it.

Tom Butler: 51:24

What about future plans? What do you see coming along down the road?

Viktor Köves: 51:29

Yeah, I think the big one is I've started doing more video work, so I've gotten into videography, and the real reason for that is my goal is to capture and communicate what it is like biking Chicago, and I think it started with just a photo and a written interview. And then this amazing woman, molly Fleck, who's a big bike advocate, said you know, I really wish I could hear these stories in people's own words. You should like do video. I'm like yeah, sure, I have a camera. I asked a friend like how hard would it be to get some audio stuff Started doing that and featuring some of the clips of people's most impactful sentences. And then what I'm really trying to do now is I want to do rolling interviews, which is something I've seen other folks do in other cities, where I'm following someone and we chat for a little bit while they're biking.

Viktor Köves: 52:22

Because I think if you haven't biked, there are still certain abstractions that you might not understand. Like I had a coworker asked me recently, like you know, I said something like oh, you know, paint isn't protection, which is kind of a pretty common slogan in the bike community, and she's like what? Like why does it have to be a protected bike lane and I had to pause, I had to take a breath. I was like you know well, because intentionally or accidentally someone could get into the bike lane. You know like someone could be looking at their phone, turn the wheel wrong and hit a kid, so like that's, that shouldn't be acceptable. I think I've published two rolling interview portions so far and I think I have a third one in the books, and the reaction has been really positive because I think there's this visceral nature to seeing the differences in infrastructure as they're going and letting people comment on them. I think that's the next thing is I'm trying to dial that in and really figure out from a technical perspective how I can get that footage in a safe manner.

Tom Butler: 53:20

Would you ever consider doing an event at a gallery?

Viktor Köves: 53:23

I would love to do an event at a gallery. You know, at some point I have 60 interviews now. I was definitely thinking at some point I was like should I do like a book or something? But I think that would be super fun. I think the interesting thing is that normally with photography I feel like it's just the photo and there's like a little description. I think for me I'd have to work with an event space and be like no, no, no. Like the text has to be like readable because it isn't just one or the other. It's like really like it's their story and the photo is a part of that story. But I would love to do that. So that opportunity ever came up, I would. I would seize it, no matter what.

Tom Butler: 54:07

That would be fantastic.

Viktor Köves: 54:08

What advice would you have for aspiring creators? I think the main one is you know, have a vision and figure out, like, what are the things that you won't compromise on right, what do you want to do? Because you have to have a central core of what you're trying to achieve, because otherwise it floats around too much right? So for me it was. You have to live in Chicago and you have to bike for travel, and I've turned down some people who are really great, even bike advocates, and I've said I'm sorry, like I don't feel like that's true to what I'm trying to do, because to me, part of what makes my project special is that every single person you see if they're disappointed in the city, you know, and they pay city taxes, they voted for mayor, they voted for alderman and they're let down. You want to do really stick to that and then start small and simple and see what works, what you can do, what's practical. You know, like nice gear can help, but it's really your craft and the storytelling that will propel you forward. Like I really feel. Like you know, I got a nice camera for this project. I'm really proud of the photography.

Viktor Köves: 55:19

I don't think that if someone had recreated this and done it just with an iPhone, but had the same level of listening to people and really capture those stories. I think it would do equally as well. You know, maybe it wouldn't look as fancy, but I think people would still connect with that. So I'd encourage people, you know, before you spend a bunch of money on gear, just start and see, like is it resonating with people? Are you doing something that people see and and you know they they feel something with? And stick to your core principles. You know, like, really like, draw a line somewhere, whatever that line is, and figure out like this is what I'm trying to do. Really stick to it.

Tom Butler: 55:58

Wrap up here. Can you go through?

Viktor Köves: 56:04

the different ways that people can follow the project. Absolutely so. We're chicagoans who bike and we are on all the social media or maybe not all of these days, but most of them so I think we're on twitter, slash x, instagram threads at chai who bike. That's c-h-i-w-h-o-b-i-k-e. And then we also just started a youtube channel so we're publishing longer form interviews there. So like full 10 minute conversations. That's the same handle, just chicago into bike or chai who bike. And then, if you are not social media uh interested, you can just follow along on our website. We'll always publish it the same day and that's just C-H-I-W-H-O dot bike, chihu dot bike.

Tom Butler: 56:46

Victor, it has been so fun having this conversation. I'm so glad that I ran across the website and that you agreed to come on. Like I said earlier, I think creativity is massively important and there's so much creativity going on here, as we've talked about. Thank you so much for taking the time to get us a little bit of a picture behind the scenes.

Viktor Köves: 57:11

Absolutely, tom, and thank you so much for having me. I love what you do.

Tom Butler: 57:14

And I'll look forward to more stuff coming out. I'll be keeping an eye on it and maybe someday letting you know that I'm on my way to bike the drive, which would be awesome.

Viktor Köves: 57:27

Absolutely. You know, if you are in Chicago, I will absolutely make sure to give you a personal tour.

Tom Butler: 57:31

Fantastic. Take care and talk to you later.

Viktor Köves: 57:34

Take care Tom.

Tom Butler: 57:44

This is the second conversation I've had with someone about cycling in Chicago. Both times I found myself wanting to experience the windy city on a bike. I don't know why I'm more interested in biking in Chicago than other big cities like LA or New York. For some reason it seems more accessible to me. I have to say the profiles of people that Victor captured adds to my interest in the cycling scene in Chicago. Maybe down the road I will find myself experiencing Bike the Drive and the Lake Michigan Shore.

Tom Butler: 58:15

In the past there have been up to 20,000 riders that roll down Lakeshore Drive together. I will post a link in the show notes to photos of Bike the Drive. Doesn't look like 2024 photos are up yet, but I sure find previous years intriguing. I also really like the fact that the proceeds from the ride benefit the Active Transportation Alliance. I hope that you are finding some great rides to get in as fall starts to set in here in North America, and I also hope that you are finding some great rides to get in as fall starts to set in here in North America, and I also hope that you are beginning to think about some adventures that you will have in the future and remember age is just a gear change.