Road Scholar

Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season 2, episode 33, wrote scholar and I'm your host, Tom Butler. I think we have finally turned a corner on weather here in the Northwest. We are supposed to have clear skies and temps above 70 degrees for three days straight soon. That might be just enough for us to start complaining about how hot it is. I continue to be behind on my miles. I am now up to 165 miles behind, but I'm going to try to do a lot of miles this weekend. I think I can do 110 miles in three days, so that will help. I am also still behind my climbing goals by quite a bit. If you struggle to get miles in, I am with you, but I promise I'm going to keep chipping away at my goals.

Tom Butler: 0:59

I'm excited about registering for the Emerald City ride by Cascade Bicycle Club. It is only 20 miles, but the ride shuts down a major highway in Seattle and also takes over a substantial bridge that is usually full of fast moving cars. It will be a very unique way to see the city and I'm thrilled that Kelly is also registered for the ride. This will be the first organized ride that we have done as a couple. She has some work to do before she is going to feel comfortable doing the ride, but I know she is very capable of taking on challenges. The ride happens in May, so she does have time. If you are a regular podcast listener, you know that my goal for this season is to ride 400 miles across the state of Washington next September.

Tom Butler: 1:40

But lately I have been thinking about a different way to do the ride. Jetson Scott, who came on the podcast for the December 1st episode last year, asked about joining me on the ride. Jetson might have something conflicting with actually doing the ride, but the question got me thinking about inviting others. I didn't plan on doing that because I am not sure that I will be able to actually complete the ride, but I have been mulling over in my mind the possibility of getting a group together. I want to get sidetracked here for a moment to brag on Jetson. I have been to two Brass Band Northwest performances now and I loved both. Jetson does an excellent job conducting the band and especially interacting with the audience. What is really awesome is that I have introduced my in-laws to Brass Band Northwest and they have really enjoyed the performances as well. It's great, when we can find something to do with them that they really enjoy. They are stuck in their house a little too much, All that to say. Well done, Jetson. It's certainly a place where your skills shine. Okay, now back to the ride.

Tom Butler: 2:39

I am going to start sharing my thoughts for converting this into a group ride. To be upfront about it, I don't have a clue about how to pull it off, but I do know some people at Cascade Bicycle Club that might give me some pointers. The first thing is just simply how long to take to do the ride. I have been planning on doing the 400 miles over five days, but the question I have is would that amount of time appeal to others? Next week I will try to break down what riding would look like each of the five days and then go forward from there. Music Some time ago I got an ad on Instagram for a road scholar ride.

Tom Butler: 3:24

When I looked into the organization, I was blown away by the fact that they have been organizing trips for older adults since 1975. I was very curious about them and I was able to get a couple people from Road Scholar to come on and talk about what they do. Here is our conversation. I am here today with a couple of people who I am very excited to talk with because I am so curious about the organization they are representing. I am joined today by Kelsey Perry and Debbie Macy. Welcome to the podcast.

Kelsey Perri: 3:52

Thank you.

Tom Butler: 3:53

Kelsey, I would like you to start out by talking a bit about your role with the organization.

Kelsey Perri: 3:59

I am the PR director at Road Scholar now. I have been with the organization for almost eight years now. I started out as a copywriter, writing all of our program descriptions for our catalog, and have kind of moved my way up to PR director. I have also traveled with the organization I think on eight trips. At this point, including my honeymoon, I have experienced traveling with Road Scholar. Only one of my trips so far I did cycling on. I also worked previously for a bike tour company, a small boutique luxury bike tour company based in Somerville, Massachusetts, as well. I have a little bit of that bike experience that I can draw from it as well.

Tom Butler: 4:36

You said the naming organization, which is Road Scholar. To me it is kind of fun because people might think of Road Scholar. Can you spell the organization and just talk a little bit about that?

Kelsey Perri: 4:50

I always have to spell where I work. When I describe it to people they are often very confused. It is Road, road Scholar. It is definitely a great pun for cyclists, for sure. It is meant to evoke that idea of education in academia. Like a Road Scholar would we do educational travel for older adults? I can kind of dive right into the history, unless you want Debbie to introduce her first.

Tom Butler: 5:15

Debbie, I would like you to talk a little bit about how you got connected with Road Scholar and your role with the organization.

Debbie Macey: 5:22

Sure, I actually worked for St Charles Community College In my past life. I was an educator and I had been teaching for years. I came across this position and I applied for this. The college has had a connection with Road Scholar for decades. At one time they were doing upwards of about eight different programs with Road Scholar. Currently we just do the KD Trail Biking Tour and then two intergenerational programs. The intergenerational programs are grandparents and grandkids. We do those in and around St Louis and they are science and STEAM and STEM focused. Those are the programs that I do with Road Scholar. I have been in this position about two years and I love it. It's so much fun. I meet so many amazing people on these trips. It's just a wonderful experience. I tell people I'm a tour guide and a maid and it suits me so well. I just love it.

Tom Butler: 6:23

That's awesome. Can you talk a little bit about the trail, where it is and what it's like?

Debbie Macey: 6:29

Sure, the KD Trail basically runs across the state of Missouri. It's the longest rail to trails in the country, I think still to date it is 237 miles. I say it starts in St Charles because I'm on the St Louis side. It starts in St Charles and ends in Clinton, missouri. The Road Scholar program that I do runs from Sedalia, which is the original end. Like I said, it was the Rails to Trails program with donations from Ted Jones, of Edward Jones and his wife Patty. They donated about $2 million to create the trail and it opened in, I think, 1990, 1991, somewhere around there. It's wonderful. I'm so grateful that we have this trail in the backyard. It is a crushed limestone. You have to pedal the whole way, but it's pretty flat and bikers seem to really love it.

Tom Butler: 7:27

While I'm on the podcast, I hear about so many different trails around the country. I just want to unplug everything and just go from trail to trail to trail. That sounds like another example of a trail that I'd love to experience. Kelsey. I think that Debbie gave a big hint about what Road Scholar is about in talking about this collaboration. Give us a look at the history, the organization, its mission, things like that.

Kelsey Perri: 7:55

So we consider ourselves the world leader in educational travel for older adults. That's how I describe Rhodes Scholar. We've been around since 1975. So we're about coming up on our 50th anniversary next year. There's going to be lots of exciting things going on for that.

Kelsey Perri: 8:09

But when we were founded in 1975, we were founded as Elder Hostels, so that is a name that a lot of more people are familiar with, even than Rhodes Scholar. A lot of our participants now their parents or their aunts and uncles traveled with us when it was Elder Hostel. When we were originally founded, it was a different model, so we always have worked with older adults, but we would take those older adults to college campuses and they would stay in the dorms and they would take classes in the lecture halls and they would eat in the dining halls. So it was more like a back-to-campus type experience, but it's always been older adults. It's always been all about education.

Kelsey Perri: 8:47

Through the last 50 years we've evolved to be Rhodes Scholar, which is what we are today. We changed our name in 2010 because now we stay in hotels rather than on college campuses. You might stay in a retreat center. There's really a range of accommodations, but it's not so much that back-to-campus experience. You're doing more experiential learning out in the field, and we've incorporated a lot more of these activities like cycling and hiking and things like that, so that you can use those as modes of learning modes of transportation, but also modes of learning. So we're still a non-profit and so our mission is education. All of our programs are all about learning, but now we have programs in almost all 50 states, almost 100 countries, seven continents, and they range from four days to four months. We have thousands of programs, and so you can search on our website and filter by what you're looking for, but everything we do is all about learning.

Tom Butler: 9:41

There was an early comment or question, I guess that I read back in the beginning of Elder Hostel and it was why aren't there more opportunities for American adults to travel and learn? What do you think was the answer to that question at that time, and what does that say about our concept of learning really?

Kelsey Perri: 10:04

Yeah, I mean, I think there's that old saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks, which is outdated and I think we all know it's not true when it comes to older adults. But it just really represents the idea that we can't learn as we age and obviously our participants show us every day that that's not true. But when Elder Hostel was founded in 1975, the organization really was at the forefront of this lifelong learning movement. We have books behind me about Elder Hostel and the founding and how the lifelong learning movement.

Kelsey Perri: 10:36

It's hard to imagine that now that there was a time when we thought that older adults couldn't learn or that that wasn't a future for them after they retire or into their golden years. But that shift really came out of life expectancy expanding, I think, and we started to see those retirement years and those later years just expanding. There was just so much more time and we started to see those years as more than just sitting on the front porch in a rocking chair. We started to see older adults think of themselves differently than their parents, who had a very much a different retirement experience or a later years experience. And once we started to serve more baby boomers especially that generational shift. We really saw older adults seeing themselves differently, experiencing older adulthood differently, and so I think there's just so much more to learn and see in the world and there just weren't enough opportunities for older adults to learn, and that's really what our organization was founded to address.

Tom Butler: 11:41

I think it's interesting that there is this over the years, and really from 1975 today, and I think it's going to be ongoing, and this podcast is about people that want to stay active using bicycling after they're 60 years old, and so it seems like this convergence of people wanting to be lifelong learners and people wanting to pursue fitness that just really fit well for Rhodes Scholar.

Kelsey Perri: 12:10

Yeah, and just being active in general, whether that's fitness or whether it's learning a new language or being adventurous in other ways. We did a social media campaign a few years ago called Age Adventurously, and I think that really is such a. We still use it a lot because it really speaks to what our participants exemplify every day. Like I said, whether you can be physical and go cycling, that's great. Some people may be camp, but there's ways to step outside of your comfort zone in different ways. In learning new things, whether it's quilting or bridge or local history, interacting with people in different countries, there's lots of different ways that you can really learn and grow and push yourself out of your comfort zone.

Tom Butler: 12:51

Man, I almost feel like stealing that Age Adventurously from you guys. So that's what I want. Obviously, there are a lot of different trips. The way that I discovered Rhodes Scholar was and I don't remember what trip it was, but it was a cycling trip. I look at cycling things and it just looked really beautiful and everything. So I'm focusing on the cycling part of what you do. I'm wondering if you could give some examples of cycling trips that Rhodes Scholar has offered.

Kelsey Perri: 13:29

We have 15 cycling programs, from Idaho to the Black Hills to the Netherlands, so both in the US and internationally. We have a program in Quebec, in Vermont, that includes hiking, biking and kayaking, so we have some that are multi-sport as well. We're cycling as part of it, but there's also other activities involved, so there's a real variety. All of those programs that I mentioned, all the 15 programs we have, also have multiple dates, so there's different dates throughout the year that you can go on them. And all the programs do include other. All of them include other activities besides cycling to learn about the local history, to try the local cuisine. There's live musical performances, things like that. So we really want to immerse you, not just through the cycling experience but through other ways and other activities in whatever local area that you're visiting. And then we, like I said, we offer thousands of other programs aside from the cycling programs too.

Debbie Macey: 14:21

Yeah, well, like I said, my program's on the KD Trail and we start in St Charles and we drive out to Sedalia on day one. And on our way to Sedalia we stop at the Churchill Museum, which is this fantastic little museum in the middle of Fulton, missouri, and everyone is like, why is this amazing Churchill Museum with a Christopher Wren church in the middle of Missouri? And all of that is revealed on the trip and it is just a wonderful, great start to the program that we have ahead. And on the day out we drive out to Sedalia and then we start biking on the Monday of the trip. So the program starts on Saturday and on Monday they're biking. All the participants, even though they're loving the program, are so itching to get biking on Monday. They're so excited that I have now incorporated a yoga class in the morning just to calm everyone a little bit. We have great program for you at the Sedalia Depot and I do not want you to miss it because you want to get on your bikes. We also trick the participants into because they're so excited about biking and getting on the trail. We come in a different way so they don't see their bikes as our crew members are putting their pedals on and putting their seats on, because, again, we have just amazing programs at the Sedalia Depot where they talk about rails, trails and ragtime Just wonderful.

Debbie Macey: 15:48

And so then they bike their way across the state and back to St Charles with other programs, with park rangers and at the Missouri Capitol, and if you haven't been to the Missouri Capitol it is one that should not be missed.

Debbie Macey: 16:01

I had a couple on the trip who said look, we go to capitals all across the country. This one is spectacular and the story behind it is that they started raising money to build the capital, and so they raised so much money but all the money was earmarked just for the capital. Therefore they had to spend all that money on the capital, and so it's really a great capital building. We go to a winery in Herman, missouri, and if you don't know, but Missouri is kind of the first wine country in the country, and so there's this great history in Herman that they learn about all the wild biking, mile after mile after mile to get home to St Charles, missouri, and where they started their program. But it's a wonderful program. The people are amazing, the history of the small towns and all the various things that we have throughout the way are just, I think, a wonderful program.

Tom Butler: 17:04

Debbie, I love your excitement about the topics that you're introducing people to. That's awesome. I'm wondering if you've thought about there's quite a bit of difference between being in a classroom with students in front of you and being out on a road and having these educational experiences put in along the way of an adventure like this. Have you thought much about the difference there?

Debbie Macey: 17:32

I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it but, like I said on that first day, because they haven't seen their bikes since Saturday when we loaded them up and on Monday morning they just want to start biking. And I keep trying to tell them that's wonderful, and you're going to have all week to bike. You're going to do about 200 miles and you're going to have all week.

Debbie Macey: 17:56

I think there's something about the mind-body connection that I think is really significant here, and I remember when I was in graduate school, I thought of myself as a disgruntled graduate student and I was in some class I can't even remember what it was but they said draw a picture of you as a student. And I drew this picture and I drew my whole body and I was smiling and it was a very different image of me than I had thought I was projecting, and I was one of the few people who drew their whole bodies, and so one of the things that people were saying was that you see how important the body is in connecting with the mind and education, and so, yeah, I think there is something really significant about, I'm going to say, exercise and working out and being centered. That's really important to the learning process and I think in many ways maybe more engaging than how we might traditionally see education as just about the mind that the mind-body connection is really important here.

Tom Butler: 19:04

That's an awesome observation, and I think about imagining myself in a scenario when I'm on the bike riding, there's a lot of contemplation going on. I don't listen to things, kind of you know, spend whatever two hours, three hours, however long I'm out just kind of contemplating things, and I think it's really healthy for my mind to do that and I can imagine having an experience learning some things, learning something new, and then kind of being out and processing it as I'm, you know, on the bike. I just think that there's kind of an element of absorption that must be a little bit different.

Debbie Macey: 19:45

Absolutely, and Kelsey and I are both nodding our heads you can't see me, but we're both nodding our heads and absolutely.

Tom Butler: 19:52

It's obvious that safety is an issue, and so I'm wondering if you talk a little bit about some of the steps that you take to ensure that the safety and well-being of participants.

Debbie Macey: 20:06

So one of the things that we do and we have had some injuries on the trip, fewer and farther between than just having a wonderful trip I have a wonderful crew, so I usually have two drivers and two suites, so we have a sag wagon that anyone can get off the trail at any trailhead. That is necessary and if you don't want to do a certain leg you can get off the trail. So that's one. They can get off the trail basically at any trailhead. That's one way to keep people safe.

Debbie Macey: 20:38

Number two just kind of reinforcing that people need to stay hydrated. A lot of our trips are in warm weather and even the one we had in late October last year was still 80 degrees the whole time. And just reminding people to stay hydrated, making sure that we have enough water, enough Gatorade, enough towel like you know, wet towels to have them, you know, just kind of rinse off just the small things, ensuring that everyone has, you know, sunscreen and some kind of energy source before they go out. So at the top, you know, at the top of the program, or, like you know, make sure you have water, sunscreen and an energy source before you ever leave anywhere, and so we make sure that happens.

Debbie Macey: 21:22

I said I have two sag people who bike along with the cyclists and the participants and one basically leads out, drops back to the middle, and then the other one leads up the rear and make sure you know no one falls behind.

Debbie Macey: 21:36

And then another thing that we are implementing this year which I'm really excited about is we are purchasing two AEDs that are portable and we want to put those on the suites and so you know, if anything would happen out on the trail, that we have a suite with an AED who could help someone. So all of these things and just constant reminders anytime someone has tripped or fallen or, you know, stubbed their toe in any way. It goes on a long list of things not to do. You know, going through tunnels, take off your sunglasses, make sure you stay in the middle of the tunnel. When you come into these gates at every trailhead, you have to, you know, kind of negotiate entering that gate and only one person can go in at a time, and it's just, you know, making sure that the people are aware of what's coming up. And so, like I said, anytime something happens, it's always a learning opportunity for the next group to make sure that they stay safe as well. It is the most important thing.

Kelsey Perri: 22:38

I would kind of expand on that by just saying that you know, compared to especially if you are an old adult and you're worried about safety going with a group just having those group leaders, having those sweeps, having all those people looking out for you, making sure that you show up where you need to show up at the right time.

Kelsey Perri: 22:53

We have a lot of solo travelers who travel with us. I imagine there's probably a lot of people out there listening, thinking well, I like to cycle, but my spouse doesn't, or I don't really have a friend that would go on a trip like this with me, and so going with a group like this gives you that opportunity to maybe go and do something you love, that maybe you don't have friends or a family that you know are available at the same time or share that passion with you, so you can still be with a group without really being by yourself and being alone. So all of those things that Debbie talked about are things that keep you safe. Also, I would just add to it that Rhodes Scholar includes an assurance plan on all of our programs. It's included in the cost of our programs and that includes 24 seven emergency assistance as well as medical coverage on our international programs and things like medical emergency, medical evacuation and other things like that. So there was to be some sort of huge crisis. That's something that's included in all of our programs.

Debbie Macey: 23:46

All of our group leaders and sweeps and drivers all of us are, you know, cpr and first aid train. Then we also typically have a mechanic. That well, usually the sweeps are mechanics and or one of the drivers is also a mechanic to take care of any of those like flat tires or things like that that happens, and constant communication with those who are on the trail and those who are meeting at trailhead, things like that.

Tom Butler: 24:12

One of the things I think that's coming through as you're talking is the difference it makes, having almost 50 years of experience.

Kelsey Perri: 24:19

And also to have locals on the ground to know the trails. You know backward and forward and every little bump you know, as Debbie is saying. So all of our group leaders and the cyclists that are going to join you on the to leave you are local, so they Debbie's not going to lead a program in the Netherlands, she's only going to lead the ones on the Katie trail because she knows that and she's a local and so that not only do they know the trails but they know the local heritage, the local history, they have local connections. They might run into somebody they know along the trip that they'll introduce you to. We've had people who've met the mayor in different places because you know their group leader just knows the mayor and they run into them or whatever, so that there's a lot of benefits to kind of having local group leaders. But that is definitely a part of it as well.

Tom Butler: 25:04

You mentioned mechanics and medical assistance. I'm wondering if there's other elements of support that you can point out.

Debbie Macey: 25:14

So I basically I try to be at every trailhead. There are a couple of trails I can't be at, depending on the schedule for that day if someone needs to get to the next stop, the lunch stop. So you know we negotiate that every day, every trip. But I think one of the things in working with other cycling groups that are on the trail and communicating with them as well they're great resources and they'll say, hey, you know, did you know that this is closed up there?

Debbie Macey: 25:41

Or communicating with other cyclists on the trail, at that time they're like oh, there's a detour up here, and the ways in which communication happens on the trail is really quite amazing and you find out about things and then you can talk about. You can talk about the detour with the people who had just experienced it, and then we share that with the participants coming in and let them know, hey, there's going to be a detour up here and this is what it's going to look like. So I think it's those things. It's about communication and communicating with the other tours that are out there and communicating with the other people on the trail, and that seems to work. One time one of our participants had a flat tire, but it was more than just a flat tire. You know he could not get back on the bike and you know there was someone there and he had a little, I'll say a little truck, but it was like a little trailer and he went out and picked up this guy.

Debbie Macey: 26:37

You know it's just again talking with people and making those connections and and saying, hey, you know we need some help. You know this guy's walking his bike back but the bike's not even rolling. Can you? Can you go pick him up? And so go pick him up. And people are really great out there and resourceful and want to help you. It's fun.

Tom Butler: 26:55

Now, when I'm traveling and I'm sure you guys have thought about this, for you know, almost 50 years is that food is a big deal. So how does that work on these trips?

Debbie Macey: 27:04

Most people, I think. They think they're going to come on this biking trip and bike 200 miles and lose all kinds of weight on the process, and they end up gaining weight in the process. So I have snacks just a wonderful snack box at every single stop. We have, you know, things that are good for you, and you know the groups are always different. It's always the makeup of the group. The groups are always different but I have things that are good for you, things that are terrible for you, lots of protein, lots of protein items in there as well, and you know I'm always surprised at what goes in which trip. You know things that I think are never going to go. Those sometimes go first, and so there's all kinds of food.

Debbie Macey: 27:45

My idea of a great vacation is to work out in the. You know, work out in the morning or afternoon and then have a great meal, and so that's the philosophy I take into this as well, and so I have. I think I have great snacks that at every stop we have a couple just simply amazing meals on the schedule, and I think in my last two years I really tried to upgrade the dinners, and the one on Thursday night is just spectacular and the participants love it. And I'm implementing a new one at this place called Barvino in Jeff City and that again marked off another kind of pub place. You know, again, it's a mix of the groups. Some people are like, oh my god, this little tiny pub is the best place, others want something more high end and I try to bring in a good mix of these different types. But food, I think, is very important on these trips.

Kelsey Perri: 28:41

Yeah, and just to kind of expand on that too, almost all the meals are included. I think are all the meals included for your programs, debbie. Sometimes we have a free meal or two just so people can kind of go off and at town and explore on their own. But for the most part on most Rhodes Scholar programs most of the meals are included. All the accommodations are included, all the activities, all the support that Debbie is talking about. So that's one of the things about Rhodes Scholar. We are a nonprofit, so our programs, that dollar amount you're looking at, might seem high, but almost everything is included. We don't nickel and dime people and because we're a nonprofit we don't have these huge profit margins built into it. So you're really getting an amazing value for the money that you're paying.

Debbie Macey: 29:23

All of our meals are included, except for one lunch and one dinner On Wednesday night. They're in Herman and they can go explore Herman and there's all kinds of places for them to eat there as well. But we do before we, on their own we do go to the winery and so they're at the winery, they're on their own for dinner.

Tom Butler: 29:45

It sounds awesome. It really does. How about making trips accessible to people with varying fitness levels or physical limitations?

Kelsey Perri: 29:54

Yeah, I can speak to that first and then, debbie, if you have anything to add. Most of our cycling programs are rated outdoor spirited, so we have our own activity level scale that you can look at on our website and figure out which one you fit into. But outdoor spirited is the middle activity for outdoor adventures, so it fits right in the middle. And several of our cycling programs are along historic rail trails like the KD Trail and the Great Allegheny Passage is another one. So you have lots of either paved or gravel paths that are off the busy roads, which is a good thing for abilities. Or, again, that safety aspect. And every program, whether it's a cycling program or any of our programs, they have very detailed activity notes for the entire program overall on the main page of the program on our website. But then you can actually go into the itinerary and break it down day by day and it has an activity description of how many miles, what the elevations are going to be like for each day. So it's really important we put a lot of the onus on the participants and rolling to read those activity notes and make sure that it's a good fit for you, because it's not fun for anybody if you pick a trip that's either too difficult or too easy for you.

Kelsey Perri: 31:05

We want something that's going to be a good fit so that you can have the right amount of challenge and everybody can really enjoy it, although, as Debbie was saying, there's always the option to hop into the van at the trail heads if something seems too difficult for you, and we also have a program that is considered choose your pace.

Kelsey Perri: 31:22

So on that program and on a lot of our programs, there are going to be different route options each day, either by length or difficulty, so that's a thing to look for on our program. So if you have any question about your abilities in which program is right for you, definitely just give us a call and we can talk to you about what you're looking at. That's the best way to figure out what the best program is for you, other than looking at those activity notes. And then I also want to add really quickly is that some of our programs also offer e-bike rentals as well. That's something that we're starting to add to a lot more of our programs. So if you're a little bit nervous about the ability, or if you're new to cycling, or if you have a spouse who's super into cycling, but you're maybe not, or vice versa. That's another option too.

Debbie Macey: 32:03

Yeah, I would just reiterate those things that you can get off at any trail head and I would say over the past couple of years we've seen a major increase in e-bikes on the trail, so lots of people are riding e-bikes. I tried to remind people that the schedule is based on people biking about 10 to 12 miles per hour. The fastest bikers we ever had on the program bikes probably 19 miles per hour and they were fine, right, they were just super fast. We kept saying if you get too far out there, you're not going to have support and what they would end up doing is just hanging out at the stop waiting for everyone to come in, engaging with the other people on the trip, and it just works. But we do offer e-bike rentals and that helps a lot for people who are like I don't know if I can bike that whole way.

Tom Butler: 32:54

Yeah, it's nice that e-bikes have opened up active traveling to a lot of people, so I think that's wonderful.

Kelsey Perri: 33:00

It's of mind A lot of times you'll be able to do the cycling anyway, but it just takes away some of that pressure and that anxiety, I think.

Tom Butler: 33:07

Yeah.

Debbie Macey: 33:08

Yeah, it's just an assist. And the people who were biking 19 miles per hour, they were not on e-bikes, by the way. They were not on e-bikes, they were just fast.

Tom Butler: 33:17

You mentioned something I think is really interesting, and that's you don't have someone that you bike with. If you don't have somebody that you know that would go on this kind of a trip, you're going to meet people. You can come on the trip by yourself and you're going to meet people, and so I think it's safe to say that you really look at a social aspect of your trips, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that side of group riding and the social connections that happen.

Kelsey Perri: 33:48

Yeah, I can say just for road scholar overall camaraderie is something that's really important to the road scholar experience. Our programs are a mix of singles, couples, friends, siblings, so everyone really feels welcome and included. You kind of arrive as strangers and then leave as friends is what a lot of people describe it as and building social connections is so important as we age. There was actually a recent study that showed that loneliness is as bad for people's health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. I don't know if you saw or heard about that, but we hear again and again about people making lifelong friends on our programs and even traveling together for years after. So overall camaraderie is really important to all of our programs. But maybe Debbie can speak specifically to group riding because it's also a little different than just traveling together.

Debbie Macey: 34:40

Yeah, it is different, and so I've had people come on the trip who know each other and they've met on a previous trip, and so then they just kind of build and then there's like five couples that come on the trip together. But for me and I say this and I think it speaks to my education experience it's always about the mix of the group, and so I try really hard to make sure that, whether you're here as a single, as a couple, as a group of couples or a group of friends, get to know your participants, engage with them, and I think that's just really important and I feel like I haven't had a bad trip yet, like there is something special about the Rhodes Scholar Traveler that they are just this unique individual, they're engaged with their communities and the people around them, and so it's just, I think, in many ways easy for them to engage with others. Now, having said that and encouraging that, on the trip, sometimes there's one person who wants to just bike and be alone with his thoughts, and that's OK too, and I have a couple examples. I have this one guy who's just an amazing biker, but he likes to do his own pace, his own thing, and we let him do that and he was still wonderful and engaged with the people. It just worked. I mean it just worked because of, like I said, the special kind of person that is the Rhodes Scholar, that they are just so engaged with their communities and the people around them. Most people just really enjoy the trips and enjoy one another.

Debbie Macey: 36:23

Now, when you're biking, we don't force anyone to bike together. They can bike in groups if they'd like, they can bike separately if they'd like. That's up to them and how they want to do their trips, and some people bike together, but most people don't really, and so where I see people engaging most are at the stops, at dinner, at the museums and on these other places is where you really see a lot of that engagement. Like I said, some will bike together but others won't. I had a woman who joined the group Basically this is when you all still had a three day before registration and she registered three days before the program started and she was an avid biker. She was really good, but again, that same kind of thing. She just made sure she engaged with the people that were there and she made lifelong friends as well on the trip. So it's really fun to watch happen.

Tom Butler: 37:26

I'm particularly interested in cultural exchange and cultural immersion and wondering, if you talk about that aspect, does that go on with not just the cycling trips but with road scholar trips in general?

Kelsey Perri: 37:41

Yeah, cultural immersion and culture exchange is something that we incorporate into all of our programs. On the Austria program, you'll cycle through the Awain region and it's stopped at a 900 year old Benedictine Abbey and you'll get a tour from a local there. In Germany, you experience an organ concert at the largest church organ in the world. So you're meeting locals at all of these places and interacting with them and learning from them. That's something that's really important to us, as I said with the group leaders as well, is just having those locals there to teach you about where they're from from their own experience, Not just because they're aware of the local history and heritage, but also they've had that lived experience of living in that place and they can really share their knowledge of the area, both as an expert and as a local civilian.

Debbie Macey: 38:32

Yeah, I agree with all of that and I would say that, depending on who's on the trip, there's a lot of cultural exchange. I can remember one of my crew members is 7071, and he's been doing this for quite some time and he keeps saying he's going to retire and he's like I'm going to retire and he's going to Abbey biker. And then he met one of the participants whose parents were immigrants and she was telling their immigrant story and there's that cultural exchange going on. He's like every time I say I'm going to retire, it's like I need another amazing participant and I'm like I can do this another year. I can keep going. And then sometimes one of our sweets who's on? She is Colombian and she speaks I don't know how many different languages, like five different languages. But she came on the bus one time.

Debbie Macey: 39:29

She was only doing a short sweep for us and she just came on and said hello in every different language and just started engaging with people and one of the women on the trip ended up like communicating with her in French the whole time, and so there are these different kind of cultural exchanges, depending on who's on the trip and what's going on in that moment. So it's like I said, just it's fun to watch all these things happen.

Tom Butler: 39:59

I think in my mind I imagine just bringing different people from different areas together, you get such a healthy blending of life experiences, especially in an education setting where people are self-selecting, who want to be lifelong learners, and throwing them together, I just can picture that a lot of cool conversations happen.

Kelsey Perri: 40:27

Yeah, definitely. We have 80 to 100,000 travelers a year on our programs. They're from all over the country, every small towns, big cities, everywhere. So, yeah, you're definitely going to get a mix of people from all over the world.

Tom Butler: 40:40

You had a program in February that caught my eye and it was free. It was an interview with Reverend Dr Barbara Reynolds discussing the legacy of Coretta Scott King. Can you talk about that aspect of your mission?

Kelsey Perri: 40:57

Yeah, that program actually was rescheduled because she was ill, but we will be rescheduling it.

Kelsey Perri: 41:01

But, yeah, we typically have at least one virtual lecture every month.

Kelsey Perri: 41:05

That's totally free, and I can just speak about our virtual lectures. Those were developed during COVID out of necessity, as a lot of organizations and companies develop lots of online programming, but we saw what an impact those programs had on people who can't travel for whatever reason, whether it's physical ability or their age or caregiving responsibilities, whatever that might be. So we're really committed to making those virtual programs a permanent part of what we offer, and so we have the one-hour lectures, and at least one of those every month is free. And then we have multi-day online programs as well, where you have like three to five days of online programming and you're with a small group, everybody has their camera on. It's very interactive. We do try to incorporate, as I said, that camaraderie even into our virtual programs, so that people can interact with each other and have live discussions, not only with the experts but also with each other, and so these programs just allow us to reach more older adults who can't travel, and that's just helps us expand the reach of our mission of educating more lifelong learners.

Tom Butler: 42:13

I like that. Again, it sounds like that was something that came out of necessity, but you discovered something there about a way that you can make an impact, so that's wonderful. I'm really curious about I don't know are they called grandparent adventures? Okay, intergenerational, that seems like a particular kind of experience that might be unique in and of itself. Can you talk a bit about that and what you've seen as a result of those programs?

Debbie Macey: 42:42

The intergenerational programs I run are not biking programs. They are typically focused on science in the St Louis area. I think they're wonderful. Sometimes, you know, the grandparents have a really close relationship with their grandkids. When they come on, they know each other really well, there's an easiness about them. Other times, you know, this is something that they just do, you know, when they see their grandchild once or twice a year, and so again, you have, you know, a weird mix of the group, but I love the grandparent adventures.

Debbie Macey: 43:14

I don't have children of my own. I do have nieces and nephews, but I forgot how young six is, you know. And so I have a program that's from six to eight-year-olds. They're just, you know, right out of kindergarten, right, I mean, they're six-year-olds and they just come up and they start talking to you and they're so engaged, so interested in learning, so interested in telling you what they know, and I think they learn a lot on these trips and it's really compelling what happens. I remember I had one young boy who was with his grandmother and on the first day he was basically just curled up in her arm and would not talk at all. And I have the kids go around and introduce themselves. The one kid who started the introduction. He was just that gregarious guy who was like hi, I'm not at, you know, like hi, I'm Logan, and I thought I didn't know. And then the other one would not, just wouldn't even say hello, he's just like curled up in his grandmother's arms. So his grandmother introduced him and to the end of the group, Throughout the program, you know, they do all kinds of different educational projects and we had one at the Butterfly House where they talk about adaptation, they learn about three different environments and then they have to draw or create an animal that could live in that environment and then they present that.

Debbie Macey: 44:37

So at that first presentation the young boy who was, you know, curled up in his grandmother's arms would. Then, you know, he gave his presentation. It was fine. At the end of the week, at the final, whatever educational part of the program was, there was another presentation point that was about to get cut due to time and he was like, wait a minute, like I have to tell you about this educational program, Like I have to tell you what I learned. And it was amazing to watch this transformation from this young boy who was just curled up in his grandmother's arms. Because you know this kid who was just so happy and inspired and engaged with what he had learned that he just wanted to share it with everyone.

Tom Butler: 45:19

I love that.

Kelsey Perri: 45:21

Yeah, I would echo that, that the grandparent. We have grandparent families which are, I'm sorry, grandparent programs which are the grandparents and the grandkids, sometimes in travel. That's called SkipGen, and then we also have family programs which are three generations as well, so you can travel with all three generations. And yeah, I would. I would echo watching those transformations must, must be really cool to see. But also, as Debbie was saying, we have grandparents who are are maybe not that close with their grandkids, and so I would imagine you know, seeing that bond of the grandparents and the grandkids becoming closer together as well I know that's something that we hear from grandparents all the time is they just create these lifelong memories just with the one grandparent and the one grand kid, which is just so special, especially when you have multiple grandkids. When I first started working at Rhodes Scholar, I was like that's just the coolest thing. I can't even imagine Haven't been able to do something like that with my grandparents.

Debbie Macey: 46:09

Yeah, and the grandparents talk about how you know their grandkids are waiting to turn a certain age so that they can go on particular programs and that each grandchild gets to pick whatever program matches them and their personalities. And it's neat to watch them because it's not just science programs, there's all kinds of different intergenerational programs out there.

Tom Butler: 46:30

That's got to be rewarding to see that going on. How about other stories? I love those stories. Do you have some stories? Again, we started out talking about that. There was this question at the beginning, which is why aren't there more educational opportunities available to older people? Do you have some other stories, some other things that kind of inspire you that you've seen with the organization?

Debbie Macey: 46:55

It's interesting because I would say I'm inspired on every trip. It shows me that you can have this very active life for as long as you wish, and that part just simply is inspiring, and so I love that aspect of it. But, like I said, it's always about the mix of the people. We had a couple of programs in the fall and we had this amazing group. I can't even come up with one particular story.

Debbie Macey: 47:26

They were just amazing and it was so easy and fun and engaged and we were all disappointed when they left, right, you know, the crew and I were all disappointed when they left and we're like there's no way we're going to have this good of a group next time. And the next group was even more amazing and we're like we don't even know how this is happening. Like this is so wonderful. It's like, yeah, keep them coming. Like this is just so much fun to engage with these people in these groups. So, like I said, I'm pretty much inspired at every trip. They all have such unique backgrounds, they come from different places. They have all these lifelong experiences that they bring. You know, there's always interesting connections that we make along the way. You know, I, like I said, I can't even come up with one specific example right now.

Kelsey Perri: 48:19

Just too many.

Debbie Macey: 48:20

Yeah, our backgrounds, their careers, their lives before retirement are also these amazing lives Like, and they, they still get to. You know kind of live these amazing lives. So it's, it's just inspiring every time I'm out there with them. Yeah.

Kelsey Perri: 48:39

Yeah, I would say what inspires me the most. I mean again, as Debbie said, our participants inspire me all the time. I think I view aging and older adulthood completely differently than I ever did before I worked at Rhodes Scholar. It makes me like just more excited to retire not that I don't love my job, of course, but and to have those experiences myself.

Kelsey Perri: 49:00

But but I think what really inspires me the most are our solo female travelers. We have 85% of our solo travelers are women and 30% of our travelers go solo every year. And we actually just did a study recently and we found out that at least 60% of our solo female travelers are married women who leave their husbands at home to travel solo. And I just find that so interesting and so inspiring and empowering that the women are just, you know, they're going out, they're traveling, they're seeing the world by themselves, they, you know they don't need a man to travel, and I just find that really amazing and inspiring. And of course, we have lots of widows and a lot of single women as well. So that's really, I think, what I find the most inspiring.

Kelsey Perri: 49:43

I can tell you one there was a woman I went out of program in Quebec City not a cycling program, but a program in Quebec City last year with my mom and there was a woman on the trip who she was 80 years old and she divorced her husband three years ago because he didn't want to travel. So she said that was the number one reason that they got divorced and she was out there, you know, by herself on this trip as a solo female, or 80 years old. So I think those stories of the female travelers, of our some of our oldest participants that are still just out there being active and doing amazing things, those are the stories that really inspire me every day. I'm so, I'm so lucky that in my job I get to interact with a lot of these people and retell their stories through, you know, blogs and articles and podcasts and things like this, but they're amazing.

Debbie Macey: 50:28

I totally agree with her and is about the female traveler. And then also, I think on one of my trips this year I have an 89 year old and an 86 year old couple who are coming on the trip and I said it makes me think about aging in such a different way.

Tom Butler: 50:46

I love it. I'm thinking that you're bringing on new experiences. Quite often. I don't know. I can't imagine what kind of planning there must be a ton of planning that goes on. But I'm wondering if you have anything new coming up or anything that you're excited about that you guys are rolling out.

Kelsey Perri: 51:05

Yeah, I can say that we, yes, we're developing new programs all the time. We're also, you know, of course, covid set us back a little bit, so we're still bringing back programs that we had before COVID that we haven't had since COVID. So there's lots of things coming back from before. But we are developing new things and we have a new as far as cycling programs go.

Kelsey Perri: 51:24

We have a new one in Florida that's on multi sport. That's hiking, biking and kayaking in the Everglades, so you really get to get glimpses of subtropical wilderness and cycle along wildlife like you know, spotting alligators and turtles and birds, and you also get to do an airboat, airboat ride through a swamp, so things like that. And then we also have a new bike and barge program in the Netherlands and that has a big flower focus. You attend this world famous flower parade, you visit the Cucanoff Gardens, which is a you know, if anyone knows that it's a big the tulip garden, so you can see the tulip gardens, that you can see, and you explore nature reserve. And that program, I know, does have e-bikes available. So those are two that we just opened recently that are cycling programs.

Debbie Macey: 52:10

I love the bike and barge, so for my program you have to use switch hotels every night, that's tough sometimes, and the bike and barge, you know the barge is your home and it goes with you and that really works. And that's what I like about Mary Cawthon's program at Laurelville is that you almost stay in the same place every night. The GAP doing the GAP program, you know we're doing. You know sometimes we, you know, like I, have a park ranger coming in this year to do a talk at Cooper's Landing, which is the new place we're having lunch at, which is right on the river. And so, even though my program's been around for quite some time, there's always something new within the program, whether it's a new restaurant or a new educational piece. Try to change some things, just to you know, keep it exciting. And we have people who continue to come back with us, so they want to do the exact same program. So that's great too.

Kelsey Perri: 53:06

Yeah, and I'm so glad we have Debbie here, because working at Road Scholar, your bucket list just grows and grows.

Kelsey Perri: 53:13

You know, obviously I was interested in, I was interested in a passion about travel before Road Scholar, but then when I got it to Road Scholar, I I very first, when I started working here, my specialty was writing our program descriptions for our domestic programs and, you know, discovering places like literally St Charles Missouri is one of the places I never heard of before and I was like that looks so cute, I want to go there. You know, Natchez, Mississippi, Tulsa, Oklahoma, like places where you don't necessarily think of as like travel destinations. But because we're a nonprofit, we want to take you to these places that you haven't really thought of as travel destinations but where you can have a really cultural, culturally immersive experience. And I think that's what a lot of our cycling programs do, because they follow those historic rail trails, they're going through these places that have such interesting history but you haven't necessarily thought of as a place to travel, and so I think that's that's what's really special about some of our biking programs.

Tom Butler: 54:08

That's great observation. I'm thinking that people need a general retirement fund and then a Road Scholar retirement fund.

Kelsey Perri: 54:16

We do also offer financial aid and scholarships, too, which isn't something that that we've talked about yet here. So if you are someone who is listening and you maybe think that you can't afford our programs, that's an option as well.

Debbie Macey: 54:27

When the person who was here before me. She had a signature St Louis program and I wanted to bring that signature St Louis program back. I'm still working on that. I don't know if I'll get it, but one of the things working with me is that the liaison that I have to Road Scholar says they're selling out Detroit, like they're selling out Detroit and so, like Kelsey was saying, it's like places that you don't think of as travel destinations. They're these really amazing immersive programs like Detroit or Tulsa or wherever that you're staying, charles or you know wherever these places are like. There's something new and exciting to learn there and Road Scholars are interested in going to those places.

Tom Butler: 55:08

When you were talking about the barge trips, I was thinking how interesting it would be to have a riverboat hotel that was going down the Mississippi, having different stops. That would be fascinating.

Kelsey Perri: 55:21

Yeah, we have riverboat programs on the Mississippi, so you stay right on the riverboat and you travel down the Mississippi. We have a few of those. They're not cycling programs but and so what you're saying?

Tom Butler: 55:31

I think the more we talked I would have that bucket list. It would get more and more and more about different things that I would like to do.

Kelsey Perri: 55:37

It can be overwhelming.

Tom Butler: 55:39

Kelsey, I want you to talk a bit about the website. I think there's just so much information there, and can you talk about what people can find on the website? You mentioned a little bit but kind of what are all the things that people can get connected to you by going to the website?

Kelsey Perri: 55:55

Yeah, so our website is roadscholarorg, so it's roadscholarorg and you can. There's a search bar right on the home page so you can just type in bicycling and it will bring up all of our bike programs. That's probably the easiest way to get to the bike programs. As I said, we have thousands of programs, so we do have a really, really great search filter tool and if you go to the top and click on Find an Adventure, it will open up all these different ways to filter our programs. So you can filter by destination, by date, by price range, by what you want to learn about.

Kelsey Perri: 56:27

We do have a filter within that the activities for cycling as well. So you can really figure out, because we have so many programs it can be hard to know where to start. So you can kind of filter that down. Activity level is another filter so you can find the right program for you, and we also have a way to just browse the collections. Obviously, you know a lot of people that are over 50 still like to have a paper catalog. So you can also go to our website, sign up for our catalog. Some people just want to be able to browse through. You don't really know what you're looking for yet and you just want to page through a catalog and those are still really. We do lots of catalogs, still too.

Tom Butler: 57:02

Well, it's beautifully done and I think the information that you can see about the different trips is just really helpful and really engaging. As I looked at them, it's like okay, I think I can imagine this trip a bit.

Kelsey Perri: 57:17

Yeah, I would say another way to just. If you're just learning about Rhodes Scholar and you're not really sure if it's for you or you want to learn more about us, definitely look at our website. But we also have some Facebook groups that are really amazing engaged places where our participants are, where other people who haven't traveled with us but are interested are and you can ask questions. You can look at people share pictures from their trips and all that kind of stuff. So we have one the biggest one is the women of Rhodes Scholar which is especially engaged. We have one that's retired teachers travel club.

Kelsey Perri: 57:50

And then the one I would probably recommend for a lot of your listeners is we have a 50 plus Outdoors Club is what it's called. So if you just search for it doesn't even have Rhodes Scholar in the title, it's just 50 plus. Sign Outdoors Club and search for that on Facebook and there's almost 12,000 members and people are sharing their Again programs they've been on, programs they're wondering about. You can ask questions. People are. You know, what kind of hiking poles should I get? What kind of hiking boots do you wear? Lots of questions like that. So I think that would be a great place for some of your listeners to go and just get a feel for Rhodes Scholar, our participants and what the community is like.

Tom Butler: 58:26

Perfect. I'm just recommending everybody go to Rhodes Scholar, check it out, just kind of expose yourself to that world. If you've never thought about a trip that combines physical activity like cycling and like mental stimulation, like, be open to that and kind of go into an open mind that that can be a really rewarding way of traveling. And you know, check out a free monthly lecture. I think that's a way for people to get exposed to what the educational side of it, what the mental kind of stimulation side of it is. Debbie and Kelsey, thank you so much for coming on and being willing to take your time and talk more about your organization.

Debbie Macey: 59:11

Of course. Thank you so much. This was fun.

Tom Butler: 59:14

Maybe someday we'll connect. Maybe I'll make it, my wife and I will make it on a trip sometime.

Debbie Macey: 59:21

I'd love that. I'd love to have you trail.

Tom Butler: 59:24

Yeah, I think it'd be fun. All right, have a good day now.

Debbie Macey: 59:27

You too, thank you.

Tom Butler: 59:37

What a very cool mission that Rhodes Scholar has, and don't you just know that Kelsey and Debbie would be great to hang out with? If Debbie can make the Katie Trail trip sound so enticing in a short period of time on the podcast, I can only imagine that the actual ride is awesome. Seriously, I do have it down as something to try and do in the future. One of the things that grabbed my attention is the scholarships that Kelsey mentioned. If you know an older cyclist that would love to ride and learn but doesn't have the funds, point them to the Rhodes Scholar website. I will put a link to the scholarships page in the show notes.

Tom Butler: 1:00:16

Have you ever been on a cycling trip that included a heavy element of learning? If so, I would love to hear your experience. Please reach out to me. You can find my email and the show Instagram in the show notes. Like I said earlier, I hope to put in a good amount of miles this weekend. I hope you can too. Whether you're out for some long rides or just a quick trip, please stay safe and remember age is just a gear change.