Celebrating Ride Leaders

Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season two, episode 37, celebrating ride leaders, and I'm your host, tom Butler. I am back with the latest update on my attempts to use cycling to get and stay healthy. Thank you for joining me here on the journey. In the last couple of episodes I've talked about the 422 mile ride that I want to attempt as a challenge for this season. I'm only going to talk about one aspect of the ride today and that's where to stay on the first night.

Tom Butler: 0:44

I haven't done any bike camping and I don't think I want to take that on at all for this trip, so I will be looking for lodging along the way. However, on the first night I will be stopping at a place in the middle of nowhere that only has camping. Now I like tent camping a lot, but I don't think I'll get as good of rest camping as I would like to for this trip. So I'm trying to think of some options, because I plan to have someone driving the route for support after I stop. I could go back 15 miles and find a vacation home rental. That wouldn't be too bad and it is all beautiful scenery in that area. Another option is renting a motorhome for that night. New Halem Creek Campground looks beautiful and I think an RV would allow me to get a good night of sleep. I don't know much about renting an RV, but I think I will check that out. I might even do a trail run earlier this summer. Of course, I could just decide to make a tent work. I do think that would be the best way to enjoy the scenery. However, our tent is huge. It is more of a portable lodge than a tent really, so I think I would need to buy a new tent or borrow one, and we normally inflate a massive airbed when we camp. I would need to figure out a smaller mat that would be comfortable. I do have a bit of work to do to get that first night worked out.

Tom Butler: 2:08

I'm loving the Cycling Over 60 Strava Club. The biggest thing is I really enjoy going to the recent activity tab and seeing ride pictures. I don't know what I'm going to do if the club gets really big. I could spend all day just looking at the ride pics. It's also fun following the leaderboard each week. One of these weeks I'm going to purposely put in some serious miles so that I can move up on the leaderboard. Actually, I need to do that just to chip away on the miles I am behind for this year's goal.

Tom Butler: 2:39

A couple of weeks ago I talked about my wife Kelly getting a cruise bike. It has been really interesting watching her get used to riding it. As her family and friends predicted, she is picking it up really well. However, it does take work. It looks really fun to ride and when I watch her it seems like I should be able to jump on it and just go. However, I know if I tried it would be humbling.

Tom Butler: 3:06

I think the next couple rides she would feel comfortable enough for us to hit a bike trail. It will need to be flat. Her legs are getting used to working in a totally different way and it seems like she's expending more energy as she learns to ride. But I don't think we'll have any problem finding a nice flat ride for us to go out and put a few more miles on the bike. My daughter, mckenna, got a bike fit this week. I mentioned that because again it illustrated the value of a fitting. I sound like I'm getting a kickback from bike fitters, I know, but I am just so impressed with the difference it can make For McKenna. She found that her feet have an issue that means she needs customized adjustments to the shoe bed. It was just so great that she got expert advice on that issue.

Tom Butler: 3:53

The weather here is getting nicer all the time and I am looking forward to a couple of really awesome months of cycling ahead. There is something special about doing a big ride where thousands of people show up, but it is also special to have a smaller group of people out for a weekly ride. I think the people that volunteer their time to make these weekly rides happen should be celebrated. I was able to connect with Peter Breifogel, a very experienced group ride leader, and he agreed to share about his experience leading out. Peter also happens to be this week's distance leader in the Strava Club. We talked about what cycling has meant to him through many years in the saddle. Here is our chat. Him through many years in the saddle. Here is our chat. I have the privilege of having somebody joining me today who I think has impacted a lot of people, helping them to enjoy cycling. Peter Breifogel, thanks for joining me.

Peter Breyfogle: 4:55

Good morning.

Tom Butler: 4:56

When I talk about that, you have helped a lot of people enjoy cycling. You, I see, are a pretty serious ride leader.

Peter Breyfogle: 5:06

That's correct. I'm a ride leader with the Cascade Bicycle Club. I probably made an occasion to hear me say CBC to save a few words, but since I moved to Seattle a little over five years ago, I got involved with that and last year I was actually named one of the top 10 ride leaders, mostly due to volume of rides and variety of rides and necessary quality of rides.

Tom Butler: 5:27

Well, I think that's fantastic and I think that there's a lot of people that are thankful, when they show up for a group ride, that they have somebody like you who's experienced, and make that experience great. So, thank you, I'll thank you for being out there helping out like that.

Peter Breyfogle: 5:46

We're going out today with 41 people from Matthews Beach here up to the pie ride and we're splitting into two groups one to go just there and back, and then I'm leading another about 10 of us around the rest, around Lake, using the cross Kirkland corridor and then the 520 bridge. This is a little bit longer loop corridor and then the 520 bridge.

Tom Butler: 6:09

This is a little, a little bit longer loop. Well, a pie ride sounds like a specific focus. That that is a great focus in my mind, because I'm thinking a pie ride means you actually stop and have pie yes, uh, this pie ride does.

Peter Breyfogle: 6:19

In fact we always. We stop a vast majority of time at the north shore senior center, and up in bothell they have pie of the time. At the North Shore Senior Center up in Bothell they have pie on Wednesday, fresh bacon with volunteers, and we show up just about the time it's coming out of the oven and we let them know ahead of time we're coming, so they know how many pies they need to make, because we sometimes bring a lot of people.

Tom Butler: 6:40

Yeah, well, that's fantastic. Now, what are your earliest memories of biking?

Peter Breyfogle: 6:46

Oh, I remember biking from the time I was a young little kid I mean as far as about six years old, when I got my first bicycle and I was the oldest in my family. My neighbors actually taught me how to ride bike an older boy in the family, so that's how I got going. And people ask me when did you start biking? They always imply when did you restart biking when you got older? People always ask me when did you start biking? They always imply when did you restart biking when you got older. And it's like well, I never really stopped biking. I biked from the time I started biking until now, just different levels of volume and frequency, but never, ever stopped biking.

Tom Butler: 7:14

Now it's interesting. You had sent me a comment that you usually win the smallest town award.

Peter Breyfogle: 7:21

Yes, my hometown is currently Popish 135. When I was there it was probably 195. If you ride every road and alley in town, it's less than nine miles. That's riding the alleys itself. You can see farms out every corner of town. It's in a flat plain, so it's a very, very small town you said something there that you have always been biking.

Tom Butler: 7:47

I'm wondering if you can talk a bit about how different it is like biking as adult versus biking as a kid, or is it the same?

Peter Breyfogle: 7:58

uh, well, I just tell people that biking makes me feel young and like a kid again. I just I don't feel, I don't feel my age with a mountain bicycle. So I think emotionally it's been the same. For me it's always been a fun, a very fun activity. Uh, I can, you can do it. I can do it in a different variety of moods.

Peter Breyfogle: 8:14

It's a place I can think. It's a place I do social things. It's just a something I've always, always found to be a kind of a safe haven for myself, the as far as difference, you know. I mean obviously the equipment changed. I mean I used to ride like a, you know, balloon tires, coaster brakes on a flat gravel road out in the prairie. And as I grew up I started, one of my favorite things to do as a working adult was to take a one or two week bicycle tour in the summertime. So that was it. Both gave me something to train for, keep me motivated, and it was also, for me, a great vacation. It got away from the, you know, the city life and the grind to work and just got out and rode bike every day for a week or two do you look at the fact that you've kept with it as something that's been really positive for your health?

Peter Breyfogle: 9:00

oh, I think so I've been able. I weigh the same I did in college. I'm the the same size. I haven't shrunk yet. I was putting on a weight for a while. But about five years ago I quit in Minnesota and there's about four to five months a year where you really can't ride a bike outside of any quantity or quality or enjoyment level. So I'd really get into it in the summertime and then I found that the beer drinking and the hot summer days were not real compatible with each other. So I got out here and I kind of reexamined it and I just said you know is just getting in my way of my recovery and my enjoyment. So I, the beer went away and the yoga got increased.

Tom Butler: 9:47

Okay okay, nice, now you have done some fairly long rides, I think it's that's right to say. I'm wondering what are your fondest memories of being out on a bike?

Peter Breyfogle: 10:00

I've seen some incredibly good mother nature scenes. I mean I've seen ospreys sweep in and pull a fish out of the lake. We've seen bighorn sheep come down the side of a wall in Yellowstone with their splays and come right across from us and drink water out of the water pond yards in front of me, all by myself. Well, I was kind of like it was an interesting experience, but I was, you know, I was kind of kept waiting for another bike rider come by the pretty small group so I was like they finally got if I got impatient and raced through the spot where the mountain line went back in the woods and thankfully he wasn't so ambusher for me.

Peter Breyfogle: 10:36

I mean, it's just been really some really just incredibly good uh, mother nature scenes and just some really incredible moments of uh you know, a connection with the universe type stuff and people talk being in the nowadays when they talk about being the flow or in the moment, you know, and also some times of incredible pain and suffering. And you know some of the long rides I'm not, you know. It all depends when you talk about. You know people, everybody's got groups that get up up the chain. I don't consider myself a really a ultra long distance bike rider. I really don't like going much past 60 miles on any one day. I will, but it's like the enjoyment factor starts just declining.

Peter Breyfogle: 11:12

Uh, my personal longest ride ever was has been in the is in the hundreds, I think 100. One day we got at a detour out in montana we ended up doing 128 miles and I was very unhappy and very. When I was also in the two-week tour my knees were giving me a hell on. The road was rough. I had like had ship coat, about three-quarters high pyramids it was like 100 and some degrees.

Peter Breyfogle: 11:33

It was just not a pleasant day of bike riding, for our, toward the end for sure. But you know you, the nice thing is like you didn't kill you. It makes you stronger, kind of. Not really quite, but at least you maybe learn something. I don don't know.

Tom Butler: 11:44

Yeah, that sounds like a survival experience.

Peter Breyfogle: 11:46

It was basically a survival experience.

Tom Butler: 11:50

You had mentioned something about a bike at the bottom of a lake.

Peter Breyfogle: 11:55

Yeah, that's probably my weirdest story as a bicycle rider. I was doing my last two weeks of riding with Cycle America across the United States. My buddy and I did it all together. We did it over like a six-year period. We do one to two weeks of riding with Cycle America across the United States. My buddy and I did it all together. We did it over like a six-year period. We do one to two weeks a year in the summer.

Peter Breyfogle: 12:09

And those days Cycle America ran about a nine no, they were doing like 12 weeks to get across the country. They spent two weeks in Montana. They took a 6,000-mile journey across America plus going up to Canada and stuff. But anyway, we were like the fourth day from the end and we were got in this rough, hot town in Vermont and I went to this little park to get a break. I talked to the lady at the concession stand and then I just I told her I was going. She always was right across the lake there. It's like, well, that's kind of cool, it's like doesn't look very far away. And and then I found out after kind of talking, well, it we can. I could actually rent a canoe there and go one-way rental over to this thing versus riding all the way through town. And I normally wouldn't do that. But it looked kind of calm. And my other friend that was always riding me he always asked me what are you going to do when you're done bike riding? He said I'm going to go canoeing. So I thought, well, I'll beat him to it. It turned out this lake was like a mile across, but it was 25 miles long. It's across the Canadian Bars, called Lake Minfranagua, so it was calm at the shore.

Peter Breyfogle: 13:11

I load my bike in the canoe Dumb idea, I mean, it's really dumb. I got alarm bells going off. But okay, fine, I'm going to, I'll do this. I've canoed before, not great, but okay. So I get about quarter way across the lake and I'm out in the open and the wind's coming down this lake and also now, instead of being little, it's also a foot and a half waves. You know, and I was. You know, canoe makes one circle. Ah crap. You know, I'm heading back. Like well, I skid around, I make another circle. It doesn't get into me, turns me around. I go oh okay, I'll give one more try. It doesn't work, I'll go back to the dock and give up and ride my bike. You know well, the third time it turns around, it doesn't just turn around, it turns around and tips me and in the into the nice cold lake I go um.

Peter Breyfogle: 13:48

Luckily I was wearing my life vest, I had my helmet on and stuff and I actually got rescued by the united states coast guard because it's a lake that goes across into canada, so there's a big, pretty good sized coast guard boat on the lake okay, that's one of my clan fans. I went on a bike ride and got rescued by the Coast Guard. How's that?

Tom Butler: 14:06

So the bike goes over.

Peter Breyfogle: 14:09

Yeah, down, never to be seen again. It was my best bike.

Tom Butler: 14:15

I ever had at that point in time.

Peter Breyfogle: 14:19

So what do you do? At that point?

Tom Butler: 14:22

I had to beg, borrow and steal bikes the next four days to get the last rise. Gotcha, I didn't steal rented you know begging your bike well, that's an adventure and I think it's an example of kind, of your spirit, of you know going and experiencing things on bikes. I'm wondering if you've had any cycling-related injuries.

Peter Breyfogle: 14:48

I've had a few crashes, but nothing serious. My worst one was actually at the end of that Montana ride. I was talking about two weeks out there. It was like 1,200 miles. We started in the west side of the state and did a lot of mountains, a lot of hills and rode really long, hard days. In the end I had some serious tendonitis in my left knee but that was just an overuse injury, right.

Peter Breyfogle: 15:10

So one of the things I've learned is how to recognize that coming in and we were in those days we popped the ibuprofen like it was candy. We call it vitamin I and you find out those. All it does is mask the pain and sooner or later it doesn't work anymore. So I don't use uh painkillers anymore for bike riding. I just, you know, if it's starting to feel pain, I listen to it and I adjust my behavior.

Peter Breyfogle: 15:26

I just have way better equipment on these two. I've got a custom built bike that fits my body perfectly, so I don't have any. You know, everything's lined up where it belongs, which makes a big difference. Um, I do yoga uh pretty faithfully, which gives my, gives me a stronger core, neck and shoulders. I, my bike position and stuff is stronger and better Between the better bikes, better equipment, better discipline I don't have it. I've laid the bike down here. About five, six weeks ago I hit a bad spot on 95th Street over here in northeast Seattle and it took me down, did a nice slide. I was glad I was wearing the full winter clothes because it wore through four layers of clothing and still gave a pretty big abrasion on my elbow which was the main contact point. But I didn't really get any more than a couple bruises. That really was it.

Tom Butler: 16:16

Nice abrasion, yeah, well, that is fortunate that you had enough protection on In the summertime, that would have been a very nasty accident.

Peter Breyfogle: 16:20

It would have been very nasty.

Tom Butler: 16:22

Yeah, besides kind of the tendonitis being an obstacle, what have there been other obstacles that have interfered with your ability to ride through the years?

Peter Breyfogle: 16:33

well in minnesota as a working adult. I mean just schedule. I mean there's definitely years there with the schedule. I had a young child for a while. I put him on a bike as well. As soon as I could get him on a bike. You know bike seats, trailer seats, trailer bike kiddie cranks that are on the tandem. He and I rode like four years my primary bike was actually a tandem with the kid on the back. He was an incredibly good stoker. We went four years in a row. We went up to Canada and rode what they used to have, kind of a cheap man's or a quieter, smaller version like a rag bra they called Candice, which is a cycling around North Dakota and Saskatchewan County. Unfortunately, they quit doing it about two years ago. They had a 25-year run. It was kind of cool. They had about 500 riders, a lot of wind. The people were super pleasant. The ride was super pleasant. Parts of North Dakota are surprisingly pretty. There's no trees.

Tom Butler: 17:21

You spent quite a bit of your life in Minnesota, I think 60 years years okay, and then you moved out here. Uh, you talked about cbc, cascade bicycle club. How active are you with cascade bicycle club?

Peter Breyfogle: 17:35

oh, extremely active. I right now I've been. I'll be leading three rides a week, probably here for the next uh couple months. I do uh help with the pie ride on wednesdays. I help with the month series on monday and then I work with the cascade training series, which is a something people pay for to get these every saturday for about three months uh get an escalating level, length and difficulty ride getting people ready for the summer riding season, primarily focused on people want to do stp or their rcp a couple of big premier events that cascade does and some people just do it because they like to have a social side of experience. They know if they sign up for this that they got a guaranteed ride. Ride leaders, the other people will be there. You know a different course every week and so it's pretty popular. This year it's all sold out. During the pandemic it kind of got uh we between not being enough ride leaders and customers. It was a customers, it was a little bit different, but that kind of seems to be back to pre-pandemic levels.

Tom Butler: 18:32

You mentioned winter a bit. In Minnesota the winter is a lot different than here. How did that change your cycling moving out here in the wintertime.

Peter Breyfogle: 18:40

Well, I can ride 12 months a year. I ride 400 or 500 miles a month in the wintertime See 12 months a year. I ride four or five hundred months five, four or five hundred miles a month in the wintertime.

Tom Butler: 18:47

You know it's like it doesn't really I don't see, I don't think there's winter I mean first I don't think there's winter.

Peter Breyfogle: 18:50

I really we call, we call late fall, early spring is the worst it ever gets here. I mean you get a couple periods where it gets below freezing. When it's icy, I stay home. I've not found any effective way to deal with ice. It's's really risky. Here it mostly just rains. With good fenders and modern cycling gear, I won't ride as far. I won't ride the big long rides in the wintertime. You get kind of tired. It's kind of hard to balance between staying warm and not getting hot you know, if you're cold ain't no fun.

Peter Breyfogle: 19:18

You're hot, it's kind of fun to wear it first, but get too hot, then it starts getting where you start losing energy. It's like, oh, I'm just, it gets you know. Then you don't want to take your clothes off because you get cold, and so then just I just go home I'm wondering if you have an estimate about how many rides you've led well, I had.

Peter Breyfogle: 19:35

I did some while I did more like ride marshaling back in minnesota. It wasn't really ride leading here. I'd guess it's been an average of one and a half a week for five years. So you know 70, 75, 300 and some plus rides, you know, I guess.

Tom Butler: 19:50

Yeah, and I think that's awesome. You know, I think that you are an example of somebody that makes cycling better for others. You don't just enjoy it yourself, but you make it better for others. You don't just enjoy it yourself, but you make it better for others I try.

Peter Breyfogle: 20:04

I think someone's kind of personally selfish. It's nice to be in a group, sometimes a little social life. I also just to put a plug in, I also do some bicycling, advocacy, advocacy work as well. I mean I do a lot of, you know, mailing stuff, but I also have a? Uh, we have a group called fix the burke gilman and we have been lobbying the Seattle Park and Recreation Department which has the Burt Gilman corridor here mostly in Seattle and parts of Norton within S-DOT. Good old, fragmented multifaceted multi-hydra bureaucracy here, but anyway.

Peter Breyfogle: 20:36

So we've been having some success there and, Mick, we're going to do. I'll put a little plug in for myself. We've got a May 9th ride that's going to go down to the Seattle Park and Recreation headquarters on 100 Dexter Street and they have a public comment period at 6.30 pm on those days and we're going to try to get as many bicyclists that can show up. We're going to have two ride points that start from Matthews Beach and Gasworks can show up. We have two ride points that start from Matthews Beach and Gasworks and then we're encouraging other people if they want to come in from some other spot just to meet us there. And if people want to, they can actually sign up ahead of time with the board there and show up and say something about their interest in biking and the need for keeping the facilities in good shape, etc.

Tom Butler: 21:17

Well, I am putting that on my calendar right now. I will try to make that.

Peter Breyfogle: 21:22

I also have it out on Facebook as an event which takes you back to Cascade. I have it out on the Seattle Park Foundation, I think it's called. Anyway, our product is actually a recognized project by them because it deals with the parks and it's a park facility. And then we also have it advertised out on the Seattle Bike Blog.

Tom Butler: 21:40

Why do you think ride leaders are important?

Peter Breyfogle: 21:43

Well, I think the most important is for people that are it kind of. Some people just need that sense of security of having somebody there to kind of do it, to kind of organize it, to give it a you know, get it scheduled and get it led. I think for some people it's also just the. They need the confidence, they need the modeling of behavior to go out and do it. For a lot of people, I think it's just your main goal. Your main purpose is to schedule so people can get together and ride. That's about what they need you for. Really, we've had some really fun ones. We had a lady that started with us about four years ago. She's brand new to biking. Now she's out riding in Thailand and Spain and bicycle tour. We bicycle tour. We look at her like wow, that's the kind of ones that kind of gives you chills. I started that person from almost scratch, you know, and they're not doing things I'm jealous of right.

Tom Butler: 22:33

Well, I think you can lose sight, as an experienced cyclist, about how there can be a lot of difficult things for people that are just beginning. People are just jumping on a bike. Especially if they're jumping on a bike, you know later on in life. One of the things that I really appreciate is that you know the route and you know where things are like.

Peter Breyfogle: 22:55

I didn't tell you, but I sometimes don't know the route. But I use the, the, I have the map, I have the mapping software on my computer and off my phone, so sometimes I'm just listening to the cues, just like everybody else. I usually looked at it ahead of time, at least on either Strava or I would GPS and at least kind of ran it through my mind and I've probably ridden some similar areas. My challenge now I haven't ridden quite a few rides is when they make just tiny little tweaks from when I would normally do and I was like oh, that's right, they're not going to do it the way I would do it, they're going to do it the way they. Because sometimes what you ride as a one or two person group when I do my casual, non non-cascade rides isn't necessarily the appropriate route to take with a 10-15 people. You have to be a little more careful with what you do when you take a bigger group around. You know more intelligent, more safe turns, more you know versus oh, let's wing him over here.

Tom Butler: 23:46

Yeah, and again, just that thought process to me is really valuable. I can hop on with a group ride and those are things that I don't have to think about and I can focus more. So I think it's awesome. There's a big difference as far as abilities out there. How does that get accommodated for in a group ride?

Peter Breyfogle: 24:07

well, cascade bicycle club has speed groups. They they start with the lowest, as leisurely, like eight to ten miles an hour. We have steady, which is 10 to 12 to 14 miles an hour. Moderate, which is 14 to 16. We have a risk, which is 16 to 18. They all kind of bump up against each other but they don't overlap. Uh, even with nose it can be.

Peter Breyfogle: 24:31

Surprisingly, the difference between 14 miles an hour and 16 miles an hour is not trivial because the you know, wind, wind resistance is actually a logarithmicly logarithmic scale gets harder as you go up, you know, and your and your position on the bike becomes more important. But anyway, the way we accommodate a really big spread is we have paced groups and you join a pace you belong in and we tell people that they have to pick the right pace because we do not. We are not generally a no-drop policy riding group. I mean some rides say that because they're going to usually they're going to leisurely groups or maybe a steady group, kind of a tourist type approach. We're going to stop and do a sightseeing. They'll be advertised as no drops. But if you show up at a moderate ride and you can't keep up, the ride leader is going to talk to you and say you know you were supposed to have, you know how to get home, you know where. And most of them admit, yeah, I knew I was kind of taking a chance at this. I know my way home. Thanks for letting me try. Most people take it pretty well because they knew what they were doing. They were up pacing themselves and they weren't ready for it. So that's how we handle it. It's like, basically, if you can't keep up and we try not to go from the other side, we try to get the riders not to go over pace, because it's sometimes a little challenging if you're leading a slower group than you're normally used to leading.

Peter Breyfogle: 25:47

That's why I use my odometer for and I also use my on slower rides. I take my heavier bike because that way I get. It makes me go slower and it's harder work. So it's like I get, I get a good workout at lower speed. So it works out good for me too. Like I'll do that today, I'll wear my, I'll ride my heavier touring rally bike to lead a steady. Well, I'm going to do moderate, but it'll be a lower end moderate.

Peter Breyfogle: 26:01

We're going to do the gravel in the kirkland corridor, but that's how I personally manage is I use my odometer, I use my choice of bicycle. I leave like one leisurely ride a year when I help do a hot cocoa ride down to park for a cascade, which is just go around the magnificent park and goof around like I even ride my rad for that, because I well, I'm goofing around and might as well make it really easy for myself, you know. And then the pie ride. Traditionally, if we're just doing one ride is a steady ride, but we do it in there because, again, even 12 to 14 is a different speed. We get a big enough group we do one group goes out at 14, 12 and that way we can everybody kind of slide in the group they feel comfortable with and we all get in the same place in 10 minutes. 15 minutes difference. That ain't really a big deal but it just helps people get in the group they're comfortable with. You know, because otherwise you got people falling back and get it's.

Tom Butler: 26:49

You know it's kind of a mess I like the aspect actually of someone saying okay, you're not keeping up, you know, but we're going to go ahead and move on, because then I feel like I could try a faster ride, and if it's a bad day or I'm just not up to it or whatever, then I know that I'm not going to be holding everybody else up.

Peter Breyfogle: 27:11

We've got a good deal for you. Then we have our Monday month series usually leads out three different pace groups going a lot of times in the same route, and so people can actually safely try the fast ones. Go out first so you can safely try one group up and if it doesn't work out you can fall back to the like. More most common some people try this the moderate group. They just not. It's not this too fast form, because we'll sometimes we'll be running at the top end at 16 is pretty hard actually, you know, or as far as I think anyway and some people say let's just fall back and ride the steady group. We also have shortcut options in most of those routes too. Like, if we're doing a long late loop, we'll always point out to people here's your chance to go back across the 520 trail and cut this ride in half. You know it's really easy back from here, how's that? And we have people take those afternoon. It's like it's not their day. You know they're in over their head and they're gonna go home.

Peter Breyfogle: 28:10

What does mumps stand for? Oh, something like monday urban merry peddlers, it's just okay. Yeah, lumps we got. Trumps we got.

Peter Breyfogle: 28:13

You know, it's like it's who knows it predates my time um gotcha so the main thing is m is monday right right over time it just becomes mumps.

Tom Butler: 28:21

No one remembers what it means Looking at a group ride. Are there some components that you think are really important to make for a good group ride?

Peter Breyfogle: 28:32

Well, we always start with the required safety briefing. We have a nice little acronym called SMART, which is stay alert, maintain space, act safely, act safely predictably, respect the rules of the road and talk and think. And if you actually do those things, you're gonna usually have a pretty good group ride if people are, you know, respectful of each other. They aren't. Uh yeah, we're not a racing group, so we, you know, we don't, we don't emphasize when we are faster groups, we definitely draft each other a little bit, but it's not like trying to set a tight pace line or that at all. But we, you know, definitely draft, because at 16 miles an hour, draft is pretty important and you know, and one of the things that we do as ride leaders is try to be cognizant of our starting right away from a stop sign and stuff like that, so we don't just sprint away and make every chase you back. You actually try to start a more calm take up because you know in longer, longer groups there's kind of a daisy chain effect or whiplash effect. So you want to kind of let them, everybody have a chance to get up to speed together right chasing, because the one thing is we take turns on bigger rides.

Peter Breyfogle: 29:30

We do with their front, we call it the lead, we also do the back, we call sweep and as a sweep you get to understand the impact of if the riders are being too aggressive or take up to start off, and sometimes you'll talk to your fellow riders and say you know to understand the impact of if the ride leaders are being too aggressive in their take-up to start off and sometimes you'll talk to your fellow ride leader and say you know you're kind of taking off a little hard there because it's really hard to catch up in the back.

Peter Breyfogle: 29:48

You know the other thing, as far as talking about mixed groups, one of the things we've had to deal with in the last few years is the rapid uptake of e-bikes and e-bikes joining the group rides and e-bikes joining the group rides, and it takes a little different coaching for the e-bikers to recognize they're on e-bike and not, you know, hot dogging or forget how easy it is to. I sometimes won't draft. I want to sweep an e-biker because a lot of know I'm doing, because they can take off faster and sometimes they'll lag back and then they'll hit the throttle and then they'll zip away and then you're sitting around by yourself out in the wind, and so I was like I'm gonna ride in front of you, you can just, you can tail me, that's fine, I don't have to be the absolute last rider on the ride.

Peter Breyfogle: 30:24

You know right right and I think mostly as we've seen them get more used to it. A lot of e-bikers, especially the more older ones, mostly older e-bike riders are older riders and they're starting to learn how to use your equipment better and fit in and not not overuse to use the motors.

Tom Butler: 30:38

You know that's which is good gasket bicycle club has rules that need to be followed. If you're a group rider for for their rides and and they also require, uh, I think you become a certified ride leader. I'm not sure if that's the right term.

Peter Breyfogle: 30:57

Yeah, we're certified ride leaders. I mean it's kind of. I mean it's mostly knowing the smart talk, it's mostly being coached on how to deal with starting the ride. So to come to a group ride as a participant, you have to get a Cascade membership, but the membership's free. But you have to register, you have to sign the waiver which says you're not going to hold the club liable for biking, because biking is dangerous and we're all volunteers. The ride leaders know we're all volunteers, the ride leaders. We're not. We're not making any money, we're not liable for your accents or whatever happens to you. We'll help you as best we can, but we're not, we're not professionals.

Peter Breyfogle: 31:31

So we've got, we've taught two things. We've taught how to do the registration process, how to set the rides, what the requirements arise, and then we and so a lot of computer mechanics of how to do this stuff. We have a website to do this stuff. And then the other part is basically conducting the smart briefing and how to conduct the rides. And then part of the process, probably the most important part, is we have to be a ride leader. You have to have ridden at least five group rides. They can't just jump to all of your ride leaders. You gotta come at least five times to see if you like your thing. And then you have to do two mentored rides. So you have to go to two, have two different ride. Mentors work with you at ride and they mentor you in both the lead position and the suite position. So you have to do both spots and then they they'll give you coaching and then they'll decide whether or not you are qualified to lead it that seems valuable.

Tom Butler: 32:18

Do you see that making a difference as far as if you sign up for a Cascade ride, you're getting a certain level of ride leadership?

Peter Breyfogle: 32:31

I think that's true. I mean, it's a big group and I only participate with a certain subset of it, but I think in general, yes, it leads to a more consistent quality approach. We definitely require people to be there for the smart briefing. If they don't show up for the smart briefing, they're not on the ride, of course. That's why I tell people sometimes I say, well, I can't stop you from riding. These are public streets and public trails, so you're just not on our ride public trails, so you're just not on our ride. You know you can't stop you from being here, but if you want to officially be on the ride and have this, whatever additional support we provide you, then you have to be there on time and listen to the smart talk and not everybody is cut out to be a ride leader, I'm sure.

Tom Butler: 33:08

What are some of the things that make for a good group ride leader?

Peter Breyfogle: 33:12

well, I think you have to be. You know, I don't have to be an Well, I think you have to be. I don't know if you have to be an extrovert, but you have to be confident of your ability to speak in front of a group. Do the smart talk. You have to be relatively assertive. I may be overly assertive at times, but you have to be willing to coach people if they're not and give them feedback if they're not keeping up or they're not doing something quite right. You can't just choose to ignore it, and I think some riders do choose to ignore stuff, but I think in general you have to be aware of trying to.

Peter Breyfogle: 33:43

The goal is to get everybody home safely and have fun. Safe first, fun second.

Tom Butler: 33:49

It sounds like that you also need to be strong enough of a cyclist to you know handle a ride oh yeah, you have to be, I, I don't.

Peter Breyfogle: 34:00

I will ride, lead, ride on brisk rides, which are the faster rides. I won't lead a brisk ride because the two positions that we take are the hardest. Two positions on the on the ride the person in front breaking the wind and watching scanning traffic so that, and the person that's at the end, who is the turn signal for the group, watching the traffic behind and then also has the most problematic catching up with the group surges. You're in the most snapping position of the bunch. So they are the two hardest spots in the ride. You should be strong enough to ride the ride comfortably, and so you shouldn't be out there pushing your limits, because then you won't be able to be effective as a leader and a decision maker.

Tom Butler: 34:34

Right, yeah, it makes sense. You talked about being aware of cars, being aware of road conditions. I'm struck by all the things that a ride leader has to be looking for. I don't maybe it's become pretty much habit for you, but what are some of the things that you think about that a group rider needs to be aware of on the road?

Peter Breyfogle: 35:01

I personally think it's the same as if you're riding by yourself, especially the leader, because you have to do those same things to protect yourself. You have to watch your lane position, you have to watch the surface qualities, you got to watch for traffic. You come up to intersections. I mean the only difference is as a ride leader, then you communicate that information back to the people behind you. I mean, maybe you also be a little more cognizant of the impact of having a bigger group. But in general, the scanning and paying attention part is what you should be doing when you're riding by yourself. Now you just have the responsibility of making a decision for a little bit bigger group. You have the responsibility for passing information back because people might not be able to see it, but uh, so I think if you're a good, you should be a really good, safe solo rider. If you're not a good, safe solo rider, you're probably not going to be a good riding leader yeah, good point.

Tom Butler: 35:44

You know there is a lot of communication that goes on and that communication frequently goes on with hand signals. Can you talk about that a bit? Where do those signals come from and how do you learn those signals?

Peter Breyfogle: 35:58

Well, the turn signal would be the old-fashioned car signals from your left and right arms that tell you you're turning, which a lot of times is as much communicating to the vehicles as it is to the fellow riders. A lot of the riders got the navigation system running too and they're hearing the same thing turn left, but the cars need to know you're turning left or turning right. Um, the slowing signals kind of put your hand down, the slow, uh, pointing to stuff and kind of waving your hand just means there's an obstacle, something coming on whatever side you're pointing to. And then you know the verbal stuff. This there's not that terrible many hand signals. I mean, I personally, if I'm pointing at a post I'll point up. So keep going to kind of get the post up and post up.

Peter Breyfogle: 36:33

You know we communicate about. You know if you got people coming in you to your point, to the people coming at you, like, okay, got walkers coming in or bikers coming in, which is more trail issues. Trail issues are, you know, inbound pedestrians and bike riders or ones on your side of the road, and the roads is more car issues. Occasionally pedestrians can surprise you. I almost made a mistake the other day myself because I was so busy watching for cars at an intersection and a pedestrian decides to pop out of the side of the road on me like ah, and like you didn't stop for us, it's like I didn't. Sorry.

Tom Butler: 37:04

I hate to say this, but I didn't see you you had mentioned that you practice American League of Bicycling and Savvy Cycling Practices. Can you talk a bit about what you mean by that?

Peter Breyfogle: 37:21

Sure, I went to a full, almost a week-long course quite a few years back to become an American League of Cyclists certified instructor, both to be trained to be a better bike rider myself and also to be able to teach a course called this um, and it was also called vehicular cycling, the american league of cyclists. What they talk about is when you're, when you're riding a bike on the road these are primarily referred to road stuff is to drive like, ride like a vehicle as much as possible. You are a legal vehicle, um, so, and maintain a steady line. So you don't. You know. Classic example of casual riders they'll weave in and out of parked cars and then they have to always worry about coming back into traffic. We, american league of cyclists would recommend that you would stay in the line that you're going to have to maintain for next couple blocks. If you see a parked car a couple more hundred yards of feet, you don't move in between them. You know, if it's, if you're all by yourself and it's a quiet day, fine, you know you want to get a car by that's where, kind of where.

Peter Breyfogle: 38:13

This the cycle savvy people they call, is control and release. So you control the lane, you scan, you say, oh fine, I can let this car by you. You get out of the way and let them. You release the lane, let them get by you and then you come back out again. The the challenge you make. A lot of times you gotta look back and see how many cars are. Sometimes you let one car by and then six other ones will cram you into the back of the car and won't let you back in again. So if I see that, I just won't, I won't release because I just know what's going to happen. The car driver will not be courteous because a lot of them don't even see you in the first place. They're tailgating the other person. So you know, you got to kind of be cognizant of the way people behave when they're driving cars too. You know their behavior.

Peter Breyfogle: 38:50

The main thing of saving cycling is knowing you have the right to control the lane. Release the lane when you can be courteous, but it should be when it's safe for you to do so. And that's, I think, the main thing they both kind of says is you have a right to be out there. Being out more to the left is actually safer. You're more visible. I've seen that myself. I have let the lane go.

Peter Breyfogle: 39:12

Some of them come in from the right turn lane and they're looking out to the middle of the traffic lane for the car. If you're in close to the curb they don't see you. If you're out in the middle of the traffic lane, they see you because you're out where they expect to see you. So that's one of the hard things a lot of people do. They want to not go left and I personally want to if I have to make a mistake or I have momentum to the right, because that's where the curbs are at, that's where the pullover edge are at, that's where safety is at.

Peter Breyfogle: 39:35

Half of the suddenly just left is not a good thing, because that's where cars are at and trucks are at stuff. So you better to keep them behind you where they, where you're still seen then and let maybe they're a little frustrated. But guess what? You're going 10, 50 miles an hour. You're doing everything legally required. You do not need to get out of their way. They might honk at you. That's great. Let them honk at you, because if it's not safe for you to get out of the way, then don't get out of the way.

Tom Butler: 39:59

I think there's so many misconceptions when it comes to car drivers, about this road is made for cars, not really understanding that.

Peter Breyfogle: 40:11

no, the road is made for everybody to use the road, not just vehicles most of the tar road processes got start by bicyclists way back when america was called the american league of wheelmen and they were one of the first ones actually the fight for better roads. But yes, we're legal vehicles. We have only a special things. We're supposed to get a three foot pass minimum width, which they probably don't expect on. But in a car they normally change lanes. You change a lane for a car but you don't want to change the sign or a multi-way stop sign or a stop sign, just physical stop signs, not lights. We can treat as a yield sign, which means if there's no other cars are present or coming close to the stop sign, you can just roll through it. Now enough car drivers have not understood that. I actually personally wrote an editorial to the Seattle Times about reminding people about the Seattle safety stops. You didn't stop. I don't have to stop. I have. No, I didn't need to stop.

Tom Butler: 41:21

Right right.

Peter Breyfogle: 41:23

That's about our own. That's the one, one of few. We got the, we got the minimum passing distance law and we have the ability to treat physical stop signs as as yield signs when it's safe to do so.

Tom Butler: 41:34

When people show up, I'm wondering if safe to do so.

Peter Breyfogle: 41:35

When people show up, I'm wondering if you know, especially people showing up for the first time, if you notice some common misperceptions that people might have or common things that that people just don't know about writing in a group well, the main thing we talk about that's probably from a group perspective is the whole, the whole maintaining space, because the the thing that happens if you're the person behind smells and you bump your front wheel into their rear wheel, you're actually one most likely to go down because your rear, your front wheel is what turns and joggles. So we remind people that they need to, you know, keep their rear front wheel from bumping into other bicycle riders so that can be bad for you more than the person. The person in front they got their rear wheel hit probably won't be unless you really smash them probably won't be bothered by it unless you're the person behind you will be very bothered by it when you crash down in front of them. We don't get a lot of that because, you know, I don't, we don't have that terrible many at this point in time.

Peter Breyfogle: 42:30

Brand new riders. We get a few come in and we even ask people about that when we have to meet it. We have a kind of a personal treat. Everybody's give your name, have you ridden with us before that I've ridden this route before, and stuff like that, so we can kind of, you know, see if it's going and most people that are brand new. A lot of times they'll seek out the ride leaders and let them know that, oh, I'm brand new, you know. It's like I don't tend to be riding that speed groups that much anymore that I get that many brand new riders.

Tom Butler: 42:54

I'm guessing that sometimes you know, knowing people, that you have somebody. That's just a problem, that someone's kind of hard to deal with. How do you handle that?

Peter Breyfogle: 43:04

Not well. Sometimes I got a little bit of a temper, so if they hurt my safety, I will actually probably get angry and yell at them, which sometimes makes other people a little bit bothered by it. It's the old fight or flight thing. If you just threaten my safety, it's probably not going to be pleasant for you.

Tom Butler: 43:30

I mean, I do think, yeah, I do think that it's important that you set a clear boundary at times with some people that you know this behavior just isn't appropriate.

Peter Breyfogle: 43:42

Right, it's not one that a lot of people like to deal with, because you know there's some, you know it's like you want to be accepting to people in the group or somebody else. If it's somebody's getting just you know, blatantly just not playing the game right, you've got to talk to them. And that's probably one of the most uncomfortable roles of a ride leader is to have to deal with the problematic rider.

Tom Butler: 44:03

Right.

Peter Breyfogle: 44:04

Because they don't always think they're problematic. Yeah.

Tom Butler: 44:08

Yeah, I can see that. Talk about the social side of group rides. How often do you include something like a stop for a snack or coffee? You talked about the social side of group rides. How often do you include something like a stop for a snack or coffee? You talked about the pie ride. What's the dynamic there about stopping and visiting?

Peter Breyfogle: 44:24

it really depends on the ride leader and the ride. I mean, some of them are my. My impression is that the the higher the speed rise, the less likely you're going to have a lot of that. Because they're out there for the experience of riding at a pace at a different speed. The slower ones tend to and again this is where I'm talking all about Cascade Bicycle Club. It'll usually be advertised in the description of the ride what's going to happen. Some rides are guaranteed that a pie ride is going to have a pie or some bars at the bakery if the pie shop has been open.

Peter Breyfogle: 44:56

The Friday ride, the Frump's ride, insists on there's a lunch break scheduled in or a social event. Our Monday mumps group, we absolutely do not stop for anything. We have a snack bar at bathrooms because we're trying to get done by a reasonable hour and it's more about the ride. So it really comes down to the group and the ride you're riding with. Like the coffee, the pie, right, we spend 45 minutes up there having coffee and pie and and having, you know, quite a bit of social. I mean it's a slower paced ride. It's all the burke gillman trail, everybody's regular. There's a lot of, there's a lot of talking on the ride itself, because people are, you know, socializing with each other and stuff so, as someone that's gonna do a group ride, it seems like it's kind of up to you.

Tom Butler: 45:34

It's like, what are you looking for? And you probably find whatever you're looking for. If you're looking to hit the road and do a ride and be done as soon as possible, you can find those rides. And if you're looking to hang out and enjoy the interaction, you look for that kind of ride the interaction there's.

Peter Breyfogle: 45:54

You know you look for that kind of ride Right and the Cascade website has the ability to pick filters on the rides you're searching for as far as by the pace, the starting location, the distances, so you can kind of get into that thing and then you can read the descriptions. All the rides have a description with them. They have the distance, usually the terrain. They have usually a link to the route, actually a link to the route maps. You can actually see the route you're going to ride so you can always be familiar with, you know, the starting location, estimated time and then cancellation policy. So is this a ride that goes, unless there's, you know, severe, like a hurricane, or is this a ride that there's two drips of water in the air, that it's over with? You know?

Tom Butler: 46:30

Right.

Peter Breyfogle: 46:31

So I think they did a pretty good job of that kind of stuff. I don't think there's any criteria like does this have a snack break? Or anything like that. You have to look in the thing, but you'll find that. Again. My impression is that generally if you're looking at the leisurely studies, you're much more likely to find a snack break, a rest break, a social event, than if you move above. You know modern, above, you're going to find less of that usually.

Tom Butler: 46:56

So you've done some pretty long rides. Uh, you talked about not liking not necessarily enjoying going more than 60 miles I've done the uh again.

Peter Breyfogle: 47:05

These cat the cascade rides are done are called uh they're, they're tour lights, they're like three day, uh long weekend rides and those sometimes go up in the higher, higher ranges. I have done cascade. I don't think it's right now, I think it's a hiatus. There's one called the uh the high pass challenge. It ran from packwood up to the rainy, the windy vista, um, by montreneer. That was 104 miler, 52 miles. Well, it was about 30 miles of climbing and you know quite a bit of flat.

Peter Breyfogle: 47:34

I rode the Ride, the Hurricane, out of Port Angeles up to the former Windy Ridge Viewing Center, not Windy Ridge, the Hurricane Ridge Visitor Center, which burned down, unfortunately last year. I rode up to the top of Mount Baker on the Mount Baker Hill Climb, which was not a Cascade event. Those last two were not Cascade events. Then I rode up to Paradise on my own, just a solar ride. My wife dropped me off the gate while they were waiting to get in the gate and I rode up to the lodge. I was actually able to beat her up because the traffic was so bad day with the cars. I was actually get up to up the road my bicycle faster and she'd get the car and that was that was really bad. So that that was those. That wasn't really long client, long ride. Longest, like I said, was like Montana 128. I've been over 100 a lot of times but I just don't go looking for those very often.

Peter Breyfogle: 48:20

This is an event. The year they didn't have RSVP, they had a two-day one from Seattle up to Bellingham back they called it the R2B2, and that was 100-plus miles each day. I think I did 108 the first day and 105 the second day or something. So I think I did 108 the first day and 105 the second day or something. So I mean I can do that. The thing that happens. Then I have to take a day.

Peter Breyfogle: 48:38

I I rather ride where I can ride like six days a week. But you do one of those back to back century For me, if I do a back to back century I'm going to be out to bike for a couple of days, just I'm rest, you know right. But that's the kind of reason I don't tend to like the real long, as they tend to make me have to take time off and I feel my for myself personally, in my own health, I feel like I'm better off. I'm out there six days a week and I'm more on shorter rides. It seems it's better for my blood sugar, better for my moods, my sleep, etc.

Tom Butler: 49:06

Etc gotcha, do you have some bike adventures coming up soon?

Peter Breyfogle: 49:12

uh, this year I I'm gonna go up to, uh, anchorage, alaska, gonna rent the bike and just it's gonna be pretty casual. We're gonna there's supposed to be a trail right down by the water that we'll probably ride a couple times and we're gonna do a train and cruise one day. So it's not gonna be very bike centric but it will be biking. And well, I did sign for rcp this year to go up to vancouver and that's in, um, I think august, um that. And I've already been up to Vancouver and that's in, I think August. And I've already been up to Bellingham and stuff. And I've been to Vancouver before. We rented bikes in Vancouver a couple of years ago and did the before the COVID, actually before COVID, so it's been like three, four and did the famous Stanley Park after my wife and I did. So I'm looking for it. That'd be a fun ride.

Peter Breyfogle: 49:55

Last year I did something I never did before. I did a what they call a fully loaded, self-contained tour. I started in Edmonds and caught the ferry and my birthday twin and I rode from around basically the Olympic Peninsula and then down to basically Telemuc and then across up to Jones Campground in Portland and then brought the train back from Portland and that was like 550 miles over 10 days with carrying like my bike at the time was weighing like 60 some pounds by the time I got to my clothes, my food, my camping gear on it and, you know, three water bottles. Because there's days we had a long time between water or somebody's like, oh, I'm gonna be a long time before I find another water, stop here. So I that was kind of I didn't. I always said I was never gonna do that and I ended up doing. I actually ended up liking. But we had just incredible luck with the weather. We had a mild weather, a light tailwind. It was just like this, you know really really nice.

Tom Butler: 50:42

Every yard is calm so you think you're likely to do that again sometime, or was that one and that?

Peter Breyfogle: 50:49

probably. Maybe it's like I don't know if I'd go quite that far, quite that hard again. But you know, I'm getting not getting any younger. I'm like I'm gonna be 66 this this july, so it's like this that was kind of our. That was my buddy and i's his. It was his retirement. We were actually we were born exact same day, so we are that's why we call ourselves birthday twins and we got to know that about each other about 15 years ago, while we were.

Peter Breyfogle: 51:11

I was on the board of the bicycle alliancecle Alliance of Minnesota for 10 years and so it was just kind of like basically the Cascade Bicycle Club minus the free group ride program. It had the events, had the education, so that. But there was a big bicycle group in Minnesota, right in the Twin Cities, called the Twin Cities Bicycle Club. That was like the free group ride program, so we didn't compete with them on that part of it. That's where I got to know him, and so that was his retirement adventure and it's my first introduction to fully littered touring peter, I have enjoyed this conversation so much.

Tom Butler: 51:42

I think that the group ride as a concept is a great thing. You know, I enjoy going out with a group of people, but it makes such a big difference to have an experienced group leader that's taking everybody out and, like you said, you're recognized as one of the top 10 group ride leaders with Cascade Bicycle Club and I thank you for that and I really thank you for for coming on today.

Peter Breyfogle: 52:11

You're welcome. I enjoyed it. I always like talking about bicycle riding. Okay, good.

Tom Butler: 52:16

Well, we might do it again sometime and maybe I'll see you sometime on the mumps ride or something. All right, thanks now and have a good one, bye-bye. I think someone like Beter, who has spent his whole life riding, brings a level of bike knowledge to a group that I'm not sure he is even aware of. I especially like that. He recalled launching a woman on her way to getting familiar with riding and then it turned into wonderful bike adventures. I think that might be the greatest aspect of free group rides.

Tom Butler: 53:00

I have to admit that I favor the rides that stop halfway on a route to socialize and enjoy some food, but I do think I will join a faster ride and see how long I can hang with it. I would get dropped pretty fast on an 18 mile an hour ride, but I think I might be able to stick with a 16 mile per hour pace as long as I wasn't expected to do a lot of pulling. We focused on the Cascade Bicycle Club group rides, but I would love to hear how active it is in your area. Do you have an organization like Cascade that facilitates group rides where you?

Peter Breyfogle: 53:27

are.

Tom Butler: 53:28

You can find my email and Instagram in the show notes and if you are a Strava user, please jump in the Cycling Over 60 Club and share a message there. Whether a leisurely ride is the best for you or you like to push the pace higher, I hope you're finding the perfect group for you and remember, age is just a gear change.