Ride This Out

Tom Butler: 0:04

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season two, episode 26. Ride this out and I'm your host, tom Butler. I want to report on a few purchases I made recently. First is the headlamp that I bought. It is a massive improvement over my previous headlamp. It is an L-SAN brand. I got it on sale for $20 on Amazon. It shows normally as $33.

Tom Butler: 0:40

It is marketed as being 1200 lumens. While it is a huge improvement, I think it could even be brighter, but I don't have any problems seeing the trail with it. I am curious about how I could verify that it is 1200 lumens. I don't really have a frame of reference for what 1200 lumens looks like. I haven't used it long enough to see what the battery life is like. I have had it on blinking mode for a couple rides, in about two hours on the brightest setting. I'll be interested to see how long this battery does last. I am intrigued by the feature that it can be used as a backup power for charging your phone. However, I would have to remember to take a charging cable with me for it to be in AU use.

Tom Butler: 1:20

It is heavy. Compared to my other headlamp, it is 6.4 ounces, which isn't going to be the thing that keeps me from getting uphills and I will probably be using it as a flashlight off the bike because it is nice and compact. I also picked up some Rock Bros boots for rainy or cold days. I haven't been out in really cold weather with them, but they are fantastic in the rain. The only thing that is a problem is that they can get caught on the boa dial on my specialized Torch 2.0 shoes and it pulls it open and that causes my shoe to loosen. But that's probably just me still getting used to putting them on. And I got an SKS rear mudguard Not much to say here, but it is extremely easy to get on and off. It was $23 and I couldn't be happier with it.

Tom Butler: 2:08

It was pointed out to me that last episode I said bay leaf instead of belief in reference to my cold weather pants. I'm sorry if anybody from Belief is listening. I hope that didn't stop you from offering me a big clothing sponsorship deal. I didn't do a good job catching up on my 10 miles per week goal. This week I'm even farther behind and I still need to put in some training for hills. I'm only 31 days from the Chili Hilly event. Unfortunately, we had one of our group get injured and he won't be able to make it. He was someone who is used to how slow I ride. I am concerned that the new people we are riding with for the Chili Hilly won't be patient with me. However, I've experienced so much support from everyone so I shouldn't be nervous about that, but it does keep me from riding with new people.

Tom Butler: 3:06

I talk about the impact of cycling on my physical health often on this podcast, but there's also the fact that it has impacted my emotional health in a massive way, so I wanted to have those conversations as well. I found a podcast called Ride this Out. Zett Golding is a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist who started the podcast. He agreed to come on and give his perspective on the mental health impact of cycling. Here is our conversation. I'm joined today by someone that I'm really looking forward to having a conversation with. We've never talked before. I have Zach Golding with me. Welcome, zach.

Zach Goulding: 3:44

Thanks, tom, thanks for having me.

Tom Butler: 3:45

Yeah, for sure, zach is a licensed clinical social worker and is also the person behind the Ride this Out podcast that looks at cycling and mental health, and so that's something that I'm very interested in. Really looking forward to getting your perspective, zach, on a lot of things. So let's start out with what is a memory that you have about biking when you were a kid?

Zach Goulding: 4:13

I love that you start your sessions off, or I call them sessions. I'm a therapist, I just naturally call these sessions. I love that you start your episodes off with that question.

Zach Goulding: 4:25

Your favorite childhood memory or memory have any bite, because I feel like that's directly tied into just such the joy that we experience as adults on our bicycle. And so for me, I grew up in a small desert town in Utah, rural Utah, and me and my buddies, just as young kids, we were probably kindergarten, first grade, and we would ride everywhere. And now that I think back on that, as I have kids, I'm like holy smokes. What were our parents thinking? Just letting us ride around? But it was a safe little town, a lot of dirt roads, we had trails going through all the sagebrush and we would build jumps and all sorts of things. We'd be out there with our shovels and we did that all through elementary school and middle school. So those are some of my funnest memories and, honestly, some of my best friends that I still have contact with now today is just those riding buddies. As kids We'd ride to the store, we'd ride to school, we're just all over the place. So just such great memories.

Tom Butler: 5:22

That's awesome. What's your riding? Look like now. What do you do?

Zach Goulding: 5:26

Yeah, I love to do it all. I call myself a bicycle rider. I love mountain biking. I live right here at the foothills of Provo Canyon in Utah so we have just amazing mountains right here, amazing mountain bike trails. But recently I've gotten into road biking to help with rehabilitation for some of my injuries and I've loved that we have some really great trails like paved paths that facilitate that. It's been awesome. I also love cargo biking, e-biking. I've got three young sons and we throw our kids on the back of our cargo bike and I say this all the time I love mountain biking, I love road biking, I love all the fun, the long rides and stuff. But my most favorite rides are with my first grader son when we ride to school every morning and our school is about a mile away and when it's not super snowy we try to ride every day, and those are just my most memorable rides with him. So I love it all. If it has two, three wheels and pedals, I'm on it. I'll ride any kind of bicycle.

Tom Butler: 6:31

Well, I just last episode I talked to my daughter that she's starting to get into cycling more seriously, influenced by her husband and by me, and she talked about riding to the library when she was a kid. So someday maybe you'll be on your podcast with a 23-year-old child having that kind of a conversation, which was really fun and talk about your podcast. What led you to start it?

Zach Goulding: 6:59

A year ago a little over a year ago I experienced a significant knee injury. It was my second time I toured my ACL. I'm a very active guy. I love playing basketball, I love snowboarding, I love just going out and doing stuff. And when I experienced this knee injury again, I just thought, man, this is the recovery from this. I'm not ready to do this again. But I just kind of had to wrap my mind around it and just prepare for it.

Zach Goulding: 7:23

And as I was researching a lot of stuff about it, I noticed that cycling was a common theme for a lot of people to rehabilitate their injuries, and so I love cycling. I've always loved biking, and so I just was like all right, let's do this. And it really helped me get through those first few months of the rehab process. And as I was doing it, I was like you know, I love talking about biking. I love talking with other people about biking. I, you know, I commute to work as well Like that's one of my most favorite things to do, as well with riding. And and as I've just been talking to so many people about it, I was like I would love to hear other people's story as well. So I started a little blog, a little website called ridethisoutcom, and it was really fun to get people's stories. But then, naturally, the therapist inside of me, I wanted to hear other people, I wanted to ask follow up questions right, yeah, I'd hear it, I'd hear an answer. And I just want to dig into the why and the how behind everything and really want to talk to them. And so I was like, well, you know, I've I've listened to podcasts, like I talk to people every day like an interview them and, you know, have those conversations like sure, let's give this a shot. So, yeah, just this last year, you know, last June, I started up and just by talking to people and you know, it's definitely not the most professional thing, but it's been a lot of fun and it's been really well received and a lot of people enjoy listening to it. It's really fun to hear people come up to me or message me and they say, hey, this episode really inspired me to get out and ride more, and I want to ride more to work or I want to do these other rides and and that's my whole goal is just to help promote it and promote cycling specifically to to improve people's mental health as well. And so it's been.

Zach Goulding: 9:01

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. So I'll do a little. I call them tune up Tuesdays, like where I'll just share a little little brief, little tips or tricks, some skills to try, some questions and things, and then I also interview people. I try to do that a couple of times a month. It's definitely a juggle with you know, working and with kids and everything, but it's been, it's it's such a fun hobby. So I've I've loved it a lot and it's really just inspired me to get more involved in my community and just it's been really fun to all the people that I've met through it too. So, yeah, I've loved it. Yeah, I've loved it.

Tom Butler: 9:35

The name is ride this out, and I was kind of curious about that. What is the this in ride this out?

Zach Goulding: 9:44

Well, I I first wanted to do ride it out, but as I was like trademarking and looking at different things, that's already taken and that's already known. But I honestly I like the this a little bit more because when you're experiencing whatever this is in your life whether it's depression, anxiety, grief, you know whatever trial you're going through, that's what this is and that's just kind of an affirmation of like I can ride this out. You know whatever's going on, I can get through it, you know and I can, you know. And when we're going on the bike ride, that's just. The whole idea is like you just process it and you're, you're riding it and and it and it goes away Not doesn't go away, but it just helps, it increases, you know, your ability to handle it. So yeah, that was kind of the the idea behind the name. I like it a lot.

Tom Butler: 10:28

When I started seriously biking again, which was just over a year ago, it was because of some physical health issues and I was trying to reverse some bad things going on metabolically. But I had also been suffering from anxiety for a couple of years as well. So I have real experience in that realm, more experience than I would like to have, and so it is a part of my cycling journey. I don't talk about it as much as a physical side, but this aspect of its impact on my emotional well-being, my mental health, and I'm wondering what are the unique aspects of cycling when it comes to improving mental health from your perspective?

Zach Goulding: 11:15

In my perspective and what I've seen, how it helps a lot of people, because I honestly, I use cycling in my practice as a therapist a lot with the kids that I work with specifically and just talking with the adults and also with my podcast too. It just boosts those endorphins, those things in your brain, your serotonin levels, your dopamine levels. It increases those levels so that you are able to just manage the day to day. And with anxiety, there's so much stress and things that can come up about. You're worrying about what's coming up in the future With. What I've found with riding especially is that you're in the moment. You have to be mindful. You're there, you're not on your phone, you're not checking. Well, what do I got to do? What's this, what's coming up with this or that? And if you are, it's not the safest way to ride, right.

Zach Goulding: 12:05

But if you're going a long distance and you're just pedaling with that anxiety, and one of the things too that's really fascinating and that I'm really hoping some more research has done about this is just the bilateral stimulation of just moving back and forth and that rhythm with your body. It stabilizes it, it calms your limbic system down and your brain and it just calms everything down, so you're not just so inflamed and just so worked up about stuff, and when you get in that rhythm it really is just a calming state. It's a calming behavior that your body will, then your body and your mind and your emotions they're all connected and you change one of those things, you do one of those things and it affects those other areas as well. So, yeah, with the anxiety, absolutely it helps just calm that down and just helps you be present and be in the moment and just appreciate life. So, yeah, it's been great. It's been really fun to see that and hear your story as well.

Tom Butler: 13:02

So you're one of many Now you threw out a bit of a term there.

Zach Goulding: 13:08

Bilateral.

Tom Butler: 13:09

Bilateral rhythm. Is that something that you see in the field of psychotherapy people talking about bilateral movements?

Zach Goulding: 13:19

Yeah, there's a whole method of treatment called EMDR eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing where the whole idea is you're talking about a traumatic experience that you've gone through, whether it's as a child or something recent.

Zach Goulding: 13:35

And when you're doing bilateral stimulation, whether it's with your hands, you're going back and forth, you're tapping.

Zach Goulding: 13:41

It's been shown to prove that it helps reduce the sting, I guess you would say, of those memories and you're able to reprocess them in a way with that bilateral stimulation, where your brain is literally it's processing it and it's going through and it's able to put it in another category where it doesn't have such a strong impact in your life emotionally.

Zach Goulding: 14:03

The memories are still there, your memories aren't erased, but the strong emotion that's tied to it, and so the whole idea with bicycle riding too, you're having that bilateral stimulation with your body. And so, as you're thinking through stuff and as you're talking with other people, it's a way that your body and your brain are processing whatever it is and categorizing it and helping get through whatever it is. And so, as I've talked with a lot of people, they'll say that, like before I make a big decision or if I'm really going through something difficult, I'll go for a ride and it helps clear my mind to really get to a point, and it's like, yeah, there's some science behind that. Your brain is working it through and helping you make those decisions and organizing those emotions too. So, yeah, it's fascinating.

Tom Butler: 14:54

I had a conversation a while ago now about how I feel when you're going 20, 30 minutes on a trail that's a pretty even trail and you're keeping the same cadence. To me there's almost a meditative aspect to it. Your breathing kind of gets stabilized into a rhythm, your legs are moving at a constant rhythm and it just to me seems like there's a state there that is similar to a meditative state.

Zach Goulding: 15:24

Absolutely, absolutely. And yeah, when you're in that meditative state I talked with one of my other therapist friends on the podcast and how he just how he talked about being in a place of Zen, right, and you're not letting other people, other things affect you or, you know, ruin your mood or ruin, like, you're just there, you're in the moment and, yeah, that meditative state is, yeah, it's real, it's really really cool and you're able to just kind of calmly think about and just be in the moment.

Tom Butler: 15:52

You mentioned throwing your kids on the cargo bike. Talk a bit about how you see as a psychotherapist. How do you see cycling as a positive family event?

Zach Goulding: 16:02

Positive family memories are. Again, it's what builds a lot of your core memories of who you are. And so, as a family, that's what we're trying to do, Me and my wife. We have cars like we'll drive. We don't drive that much, though. Everything is within not everything, but a lot of things are within three to five miles of your house. And so as you ride with your family, with your kids, it just creates those positive memories and just being outside and you're able to just soak in nature a little bit more and have interactions and connections with your community that normally you wouldn't get in a car. And so, yeah, and just this last fall, I took my son out on some mountain bike trails and he was just loving it, doing the jumps and the whoops and everything, and so it's just really fun to again establish some of those memories and create a family culture of like this is what we do, and we try to be as healthy as we can, but we do it for our physical health, but mostly for our mental health as well, where we can just enjoy and create these positive memories.

Zach Goulding: 17:06

And so, and yeah, I'm thinking back to another podcast guest that I had on and he would every year he would take his family. He still does this. He still does this. His kids are grown. But there's a place kind of down by Arches National Park here in Utah. It's called Canyonlands National Park and there's a hundred mile white rim road that they ride on and he would take his kids there as like little kids and they would do five or 10 miles at a time. And I'm talking to his son and I ride a lot with him now and he's just saying that, yeah, like those are some of my best memories that I have and it just taught me that resilience and just to have those memories with my family it's just special. So, yeah, absolutely like establishing that culture and those memories are so important for parents, but especially for kids.

Tom Butler: 17:50

Realize I'm an old guy and so I have sometimes an old guy perspective on things, but to me just seems like such a cool thing because you move at a different pace through the world. When you guys are jumping on a bike as opposed to jumping in a car and going five miles. It's such a different pace to life. And then there's an element of getting away from kind of the electronics you know and as a family, like being able to be doing something that takes people away from the virtual world or the electronic world, whatever.

Zach Goulding: 18:30

No, absolutely, and I love what you said at the pace just teaches you to slow down. You know, smell the roses, enjoy life, whether you get there 10, 15 minutes later, like that's okay and that's, and it teaches you to just go with that flow and be in the moment. And then, yeah, with you know, we live in a society and world of electronics and it's, you know, it's great, it's how we're able to connect and communicate this way, right, but it's all you. So you also have to have balance with it and recognize that like, yeah, the majority of kids are now, that's all that they do, and not all, but a lot of what they do. And so helping them experience the world and see parents and also I mean grandparents too there's a lot of studies out there, too that show like having active grandparents that go out and do stuff Like that has such a significant impact on children too, to see that that it, you know it transcends generations, right, and you're just teaching that to other people.

Tom Butler: 19:27

For me there's a bit of a catch when I'm using cycling as an intervention for times that I'm depressed, because when I'm depressed I kind of shut down a bit. I'm not as motivated to be active. It's just like more like closing down when I'm depressed. So what do you think about that?

Zach Goulding: 19:47

you know, as far as cycling and depression, that's a real thing for a lot of people that suffer, and everyone has, you know, different symptoms or like kind of a spectrum of depression. Right, we all feel sad, we all feel depressed at times, we all go through those things and so, yeah, that's one of the biggest hurdles for sure is getting that motivation and getting that drive to get out and do something. Because you know, deep down, we know, we know that this will help us and benefit us. But it's just like getting over that hurdle and so you know, I would say, be kind to yourself, you know, be nice to yourself. And even if it's just like, hey, I'm going to just go for a ride around the block and just, you know, give yourself a little bit of let's just see how that goes for maybe one, two minutes, right, you don't have to go for a hundred mile ride or do something you know super long like that. And you know and I would say that too with if you have a family member that might be having symptoms of depression as well is that you know we can become really impatient with them and just do it like, come on, snap out of it and do it, and that works for some people, to have that motivation. But also, too, like you know, I wouldn't expect like I had a neighbor that had a broken leg like I wouldn't expect them to be able to climb on the roof of my house, right, like could they do it, like maybe, but it's probably not the safest thing or the wisest thing for them to do Like it would take time for them to heal, it would take time for them to like to get into the business where they will do that. And here's a ladder. You know, like you're, you're coaching them along the way.

Zach Goulding: 21:13

And so, again, like we have to be patient and kind to ourselves and coach ourselves along the way too, of like, okay, like, ah, man, I don't know if I can get the bike out of my garage today, or like the tires are flatter.

Zach Goulding: 21:25

You know, you find every reason to be a barrier or to be a hurdle to not to do it right. But if it's just like, okay, I'm just going to go check out the tires, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fix them, but I'm just going to check right, so just doing those small steps, and sometimes it takes a little bit of time and a little bit of motivation, but you know it's plug for therapy too, like I, you know, if you need to process or talk to somebody about it, that really helps too. Just just get your mind in a good space to kind of discuss some of those things. And you know, therapy it's becoming a lot more normal, a lot more people are talking about it and how it can help them. So yeah, absolutely. If they need to talk to somebody, that's great. But you can also talk to yourself and you can help yourself along the way and give yourself that motivation with that patience and kindness as well.

Tom Butler: 22:11

What thoughts do you have about the cycling community and the value of a cycling community? I know I think you're seeing a bit of a community with your podcast, maybe.

Zach Goulding: 22:22

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 22:22

Yeah, talk about that.

Zach Goulding: 22:24

The cycling community. I feel like it can be intimidating right when you're an outsider looking into the cycling community. Once you talk to somebody about biking, that's again I try to like break down some of those barriers as far as, like man, I see those guys ride in 100 miles and those long, they're all decked out in their kits and they're fancy thousands of dollars of bikes and there's nothing wrong with that. That's amazing, that's great. But that can be an intimidating thing for some people to like jump into biking and it's like everyone has a bike, everyone has a bike in their garage. Like just pull that bike out and go for a ride and talk to somebody about it and see what you think and then sure, if it progresses to that when you're doing major rides, great, if not great.

Zach Goulding: 23:09

Like there's this element of you don't have to be a quote unquote cyclist to enjoy bicycle riding.

Zach Goulding: 23:16

Right, and in fact, like the people that just ride, commute to work or commute to school, those communities that I've gotten closer with recently, they're like some of the realist people in the world and it's so fun to talk with them about their bikes, about just life and, like you said, it's the pace of life and everyone understands that and it's like, hey, we're here, we're in the moment and we're enjoying this.

Zach Goulding: 23:39

And yeah, there's nothing better than going for a good bike ride with other people in your community and talking with them and just stopping along the way and just enjoying the ride. As far as like mental health, absolutely Like being connected to other people, with like-minded you know ideas, and even different ideas too Like that it's great for us to accept some of those things and to learn from those. And as we're connected to those new communities, we're human and we want to be a part of a tribe, we want to be a part of a culture and be a part of something that is bigger than us, and so cycling and bicycle riding is a major component of that, like it's an avenue that you can take for that.

Tom Butler: 24:20

I had a really fun experience last fall where we were doing a ride and it was a hilly ride. It was in an area, kitsap, peninsula. I was riding up a hill, a fairly steep hill set a pace, set a heart rate.

Tom Butler: 24:37

I didn't want to get above and so I was just kind of grinding along and here beside me came this woman older than me on an e-bike and she's chugging up this hill, you know, and she just kind of slowed down and just was encouraging me, just cheering me on, you know. It's like you're doing good, you're looking good, you know, and I just found that to be such a fun thing. I enjoyed that almost more than anything on the whole ride just this person who saw kind of her contribution to the people around her as being a cheerleader, and I just found that to be super cool.

Zach Goulding: 25:12

Love it. Yeah, one of the things that we've started up at my son's school and you've probably seen it a lot of your listeners have probably seen it too like the bike bus movement that's been going on with, you know, getting families, kids, parents and everybody the community riding to school in the morning, and that is so it's so much fun. And in fact, I joked with one of our community partners that I've recruited more retired people to join our bike bus than I have actual kids, cause I'm like, hey, what are you doing Friday morning? Come and join us and they do, and they show up in my son and the other kids they love you know these retired people coming out and they know them by name. And it's again, it's that community. They're like oh, dave's here. Hey, dave, like haven't seen you for a while, how are you doing? And so it's so much fun. Yeah, it's just bicycling. You know it expands every generation, from kids all the way up to, you know, 100 years old. That's everyone enjoys it. So it's that community.

Tom Butler: 26:11

That's cool. I live very close to a school Not close enough to kind of see the school, but I hope that it starts up in our area. We don't necessarily have the best roads for it, I don't know. You know, if there's a way to take over the road. There probably is, but it'd be fun to see.

Zach Goulding: 26:29

Yeah.

Tom Butler: 26:29

Martin Seligman is an author, researcher and he wrote a book several years ago called Flourish. I don't know if you're familiar with him and his work, but he talks about the power of gratitude in the book. I'm wondering what you think about cycling as a way of experiencing gratitude. I personally find a lot of things to be grateful for when I'm out on a ride. I'm thankful for where I live, thankful for my bike and the equipment I have. I have an understanding wife who at least one listener calls an angel because she puts up with my I need a new bike requests. I'm thankful for healthy knees and hips and ankles. For me it's an activity where I'm living out things that I can be thankful for. What do you think?

Tom Butler: 27:17

about gratefulness, about thankfulness and kind of how that fits in with being on a bike.

Zach Goulding: 27:23

When you sent me some questions. I love that you asked this, because Martin Seligman, when I was doing my schooling way back when, I mean he's one of the fathers of positive psychology, right, something that I love. Yeah, his book is amazing, all of his works that he's done. This idea of gratitude and thankfulness, for sure, when you're riding your bike again, when you're in the moment and you're just hearing the birds, and if you're out on the street, you see your community, you see your city, your town and a different perspective, and you think, oh, I didn't notice that this tiny little library was right here, I didn't notice that there was this bike path that came over here. And so, yeah, you just really learn to appreciate the little things and those small things, and that's for anyone wanting to improve their mental health. That's one of the key foundations is having gratitude and just recognizing those small little things, and I talk about this a lot too.

Zach Goulding: 28:20

The end of your day, it's always good to create a highlight reel in your mind of the things that you were grateful for.

Zach Goulding: 28:28

They don't have to be big, they can just be those little things, whether you recite them to yourself or, if you're spiritual, in a meditative or a prayer state or whatever it is, but recognizing those little moments of gratitude have such a profound impact Because, again, our thoughts are directly connected to our feelings and to our behaviors and our emotions.

Zach Goulding: 28:49

And so, yeah, and the bicycle, again, is just another tool, a great tool to recognize all those little things that we have the ability to be grateful for. And even, too, my wife jokes with me because I got a flat tire one time and I was like I said, hey, I got a flat tire, I'm fixing it up. Luckily it wasn't too far away. And she was just laughing and she's like, of course you would find some way to make a spin that this is a positive thing, that where you got a flat tire, I'm like, yeah, it wasn't that far away, it gave me the opportunity to fix it. So it's good to create those habits and those patterns of thinking, and if you fall out of it every once in a while, that's okay too. You just kind of, again, you recognize and you just practice it and it becomes a habit and it really helps to see the world in a different light, a different view.

Tom Butler: 29:40

Because of my focus on metabolic health. I'm constantly talking to people about inactivity, about the role of being active in impacting insulin resistance, in impacting this real fat accumulation. So it's just so obvious that physical activity is vital for physical health. I'm wondering if you hear those same things in the mental health realm. Is exercise seen as vital to mental health as it is to physical health?

Zach Goulding: 30:13

Yeah, 100%, absolutely. A lot of times. There's a lot of research out there and a lot of mental health therapists and psychologists. That's one of the first things that they prescribe is getting on a active exercise routine. When you move in your body. It helps with so many other aspects of your life. It helps with your sleep. Sleep is probably the best thing for your mental health and when you're moving your body, you're exercising, it helps get that sleep at night. It also just helps with again, like we were talking about that rhythm. It helps alleviate a lot of that stress, a lot of that tension. You're able to release it in a positive and healthy way. And when you get those endorphins, you get the serotonin levels, the dopamine, all those hormone levels. Increasing it just overall improves your mental health.

Zach Goulding: 31:00

And so much of the problems that we're dealing with now in our society have to do with our diets and also the stress that we experience. Like when we experience stress, our cortisol levels go up right, and our cortisol levels it's that fight or flight, it's like I gotta do something. When you're just stuck and when you're sitting at a desk staring at a screen and you're not moving, you're not releasing that cortisol like it profoundly impacts your health, it profoundly impacts your heart, and so when those stress levels go up, you need to move your body and when you experience those emotions, you just think about that word emotion, like it's supposed to put you in motion. You're supposed to move, you're supposed to get, like, work those things through.

Zach Goulding: 31:49

And so, yeah, exercise for your mental and emotional health is one of the best things that you can do absolutely. And so, yeah, for physical, mental, all of it, and and you know again, we all know that but it's a matter of like, getting again, getting into the habit of it and making that time and and just taking it slow and steady. You know you don't have to run a marathon tomorrow, but you know, just maybe start by walking around the block or Walking, you know, down the street, just something small and easy, taken in those moments, and then you'll build up to that. So, yeah, absolutely, exercises is key for a lot of that.

Tom Butler: 32:24

Is there research that shows that being out in nature as a psychotherapist, do you Like prescribed that, that there's something about being out in the natural world that is healing?

Zach Goulding: 32:38

Yes, yeah, oh, absolutely there's. There's a lot of research out there that just shows like having natural sunlight just gets your, your body's rhythm in a in a more stable state. That helps with your sleeping patterns. Also, just hearing bird song when you're out and you're you're, you take a second to stop and listen to the birds One of my colleagues talks about this.

Zach Goulding: 33:00

A lot is that, like, when you're around birds and you hear the birds chirping, that's like it keys into our biological response, that like we're in a safe spot because birds will only sing when there's pre, when predators aren't around, right, and so like that again, so speaks to our human DNA, that like, hey, I'm safe, I'm in nature and I hear these birds, and it's, it's calming to me. You don't you have to be, you know, in a forest or anything, or you know an amazing mountain, but just yeah, being outside and enjoying some of that fresh air and you know, appreciating, you know, the trees, and again, with your, your breathing and everything, absolutely nature is one of the main healing components. They can help. And so, yeah, as you're again, when you tie all these things together, right, you're writing the bilateral simulation in nature it's like man that how can this not be beneficial for your mental health? So yeah, that's great.

Tom Butler: 33:53

I like setting goals, I like Strava, I like data. My family will laugh at me sometimes, you know, when I'm going through my Strava data. To me there's a this positive emotional hit when when I achieve a goal, but like right now, I have this goal of Doing an average of 10 miles a day and I'm quite behind. I have whipped out on a few cold days and I got sick and and I'm behind, and so I'm seeing that Situation and it seems like there's something of a benefit there. You know the benefit of the struggle to achieve, or even not achieving, and then getting up and trying again. Do you see? That element is something that's positive for people emotionally.

Zach Goulding: 34:48

Yeah, it builds that resilience inside of you, right, and it it helps you Like learn from disappointment and being like, okay, yeah, I, maybe I didn't accomplish my goal today, but tomorrow this is how I can improve on it, and again, taking those small, Incremental steps to help with that.

Zach Goulding: 35:06

And so, yeah, goal-setting and, like you said, when you achieve some of those things, that's that like quick reward, that's that dopamine Hit and, honestly, when you're doing it in a productive, healthy way, like it's great, it feels, it feels amazing, but also to like the longer term benefit of it, right, it's just building the habit.

Zach Goulding: 35:25

And so Sometimes, you know, we can get caught up in like those, those goals, and if we're not achieving them, then our mind can get to the state of like all or nothing, which is, you know, a thinking error where we're just like, oh well, I messed up today, like I, there's no way I can do it tomorrow, there's no way I get like I'm too far behind, there's, I might as well give up. I get catching that thinking and then just recognize like, okay, I didn't accomplish what I want to do today, but but tomorrow I'll Work on improving that, right, and, again, being patient and kind with yourself. So you don't just completely give up because it's it's not necessarily like the complete outcome. It's the journey right, it's the process and it's the the habits that you make that really make the difference.

Tom Butler: 36:07

I want to talk a bit about some episodes that you did and on your podcast. Last November you had Jeremy Risler on. Can you talk about his story briefly and also what impact you would like a story like his to have on People's view of themselves?

Zach Goulding: 36:24

Yeah, his story was incredible. I came across his Instagram account. It was called the paragravell cyclist. He's paralyzed, you know, from the ways down. He had suffered a motocross accident, the severed his spine and he was told he would never walk again. Yeah right, and he was basically told he was gonna not live Very much longer either, because, just statistically, that's what can happen to a lot of paraplegics. And so he was, you know, just talking with a physical therapist about different things and he got to the point where he could, he was, he was teaching himself how to stand up, he was teaching himself how to walk and I just I couldn't comprehend this. So what are you talking about? How does this work?

Zach Goulding: 37:05

I'm definitely not doing his story justice. I would definitely, if you're hearing this, you know, look him up on Instagram and if you want to hear the episode that I did with him, or you know, he's documented it pretty well. But he's essentially taught himself how to walk, you know, with crutches and with, with, with assistance, just by over and over that muscle memory of just doing it over and over again. And he got on a e-bike with his wife, like they figured out, okay, like maybe I can just throttle and ride this e-bike and just riding it, like he talks about, just he felt like normal Right, whatever normal is to people that, like the other people on the bike path, they had no idea that he was paralyzed right and that he just felt like so free and throw, so normal in that moment and so he just wanted again it's that, like those endorphins, those that don't mean that that's her tone of that. He just wanted more of it and met some friends that were into gravel cycling and there said, hey, like let's, let's try this out. And you know, he got to the point where he could. Well, he got to the point where you get right on a peloton, a Stationary bike and again, just kind of teaching himself that through muscle memory.

Zach Goulding: 38:12

Yeah, amazing, just fascinating stories. So it was really, really inspiring and so like that story to me. You know, we all experienced difficult trials. We all experienced different thing, hard things in our life. Some of it, yeah, but it can be as significant as Jeremy's story. But you know, a lot of our lives isn't, and so you know the little struggles of the little things that we go through. We can definitely use that as an excuse to just like there's. You know I'm gonna be just stuck here forever, but his mindset of just determination, of grit and just resilience. In fact he started a blog, I think it's called grit and gears. It's great, it's awesome. I I read it all the time. He just has some great, some great knowledge and wisdom to share.

Tom Butler: 38:56

I like the element of not getting stuck.

Tom Butler: 38:59

Yeah you know he was given, you know, some really bad news, news that nobody would want to have. And then you know bodies are amazing, and so to Hang in there and it's, you know, it is the, the element of resiliency. And you know, for me, sometimes I have to remind myself. You know, look, we don't have to give up on this right now. I'm more resilient than this. I I've handled more than this. I can, I can do this, and other people have had it more than this. And and to hear a story like that, it just seems like it opens up that world of resilience.

Zach Goulding: 39:36

And that's what he talks about too, just like tapping into that and that willpower and yeah, then when you go through Difficult situations, you're able to build on those and learn from them that when you're faced with other difficult trials, you be like well, I handle this, I did this.

Tom Butler: 39:52

okay, like I can, I can tackle this too, and it gives you that confidence to to go through whatever you're going through another guest you had last August was Stephen Dunn, and he talked about his experience as a fireman and his advocacy work and and he talked about an aspect that that kind of really touched me and that was as a firefighter. He comes across at times people that have died as a result of a collision with it, with a vehicle, and so he talks about motor vehicles and cause of death and he talks about, especially with children, that it's has been a Major cause of death for children. It seemed like that that had an impact on you. I was kind of, as I was listening, thinking him sharing that story had an impact on you and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the impact on you. What kind of what went through your mind?

Zach Goulding: 40:53

Yeah, the biking fireman, stephen Dunn, he's great the advocacy work that he does in New Jersey and that's why I wanted him on my podcast to talk with him about that. And yeah, and I had asked him that question I was like, what's the hardest part about being a firefighter? Because as a little kid, you want to be a firefighter riding around the truck and saving people and saving things, and you don't really realize that firefighters are a lot. Typically, them and police officers are typically the first responders to an accident. He just set it straight up he's just seeing dead children and I'm like, oh man, like yeah, that is, I can't imagine that right. And so for him to talk about that and our first responders, man, they experience a lot of that trauma. They see that and it impacts them quite a bit. And so I've worked with a lot of those first responders and talking with them. In fact, I worked as a crisis worker and one of the first things that I got called out on to go assist with was a kid getting hit by a car and man, again, you wouldn't wish that on your worst enemy and it's really, really tough. And so, again, that's why I respect Steven so much for what he's doing Because he's like I'm trying to advocate for people to be out on their bikes, right, and I recognize that where I live is not the safest thing.

Zach Goulding: 42:16

So I got to do whatever I can to advocate to the city that we need safer infrastructure, we need safer bike paths, we need all these things to help with this and so, yeah, that's a tough thing, but it's reality, it's the world that we live in and so we have to do everything that we can to work with our cities and work with our decision makers and policymakers to make a safe world for our kids to bike in. I talked about that growing up in a small town, like I could bike anywhere and be safe and it was OK. But when you live in a higher population town or city, that's not reality. But we want it to be right and it can be. It definitely can be if we make some choices and some decisions about that.

Zach Goulding: 43:02

But it takes that advocacy work. It takes people standing up and saying enough is enough, like we got to make some changes here. We got to do something different because we can prevent a lot of these things, and that's what they talk about. Some of these things they're not accidents, they are crashes, like someone is at fault here when those things happen. And so, yeah, we got to take it a lot more serious, and so, again, I appreciate all that he does, and all the other first responders too. They're amazing.

Tom Butler: 43:27

With people like Steven. I think you've had several conversations with people. How would you look at how it's going with transportation planning from what you're hearing your guests say?

Zach Goulding: 43:39

Yeah, I think it all depends on where they live and their situations that they're in. But overall, I feel like there's this awakening of, and there's a lot of people on social media talking about safer streets and housing laws and urban design and everything. That it's starting to wake up a lot of people, because a lot of times it's just like, oh yeah, I live in this city and I don't care about my community, whatever. I just go to work and school and just do my thing. But with some of my guests, they talk about that and we've experienced that firsthand too.

Zach Goulding: 44:12

When you start biking, you start to recognize, yeah, some things need to change around here. And it's not just for a recreationist standpoint of, yes, I want to have a safer bike lane so I can go ride on a Saturday morning. A lot of people, this is how they get around. It's through public transportation and through having safer infrastructure, and so we've got to do everything that we can to help them out as well. And so, yeah, you're seeing a lot of at least I'm seeing a lot of positive change. We've seen some momentum shift in the city that we live in, because it's been notorious to not have the safest things, but we're talking with a lot of the city council and policymakers and things, so it's fun. It's an uphill battle, for sure, but it's one that, as you again, you're connected and you're fighting for something a little bit bigger than you it's really cool to be a part of. Yeah, it's been a really cool aspect of getting more into the bicycle scene as well, and so I love it.

Tom Butler: 45:14

What does 2024 have in store for? Ride this Out.

Zach Goulding: 45:19

Yeah, I'm going to continue to do the podcast as much as I can. I'm actually I've been doing mental health therapy for over 10 years and the bicycle is a major part of that and I look to have that be even more bigger part of that. In fact, I just got a new office that I'm going to be going to and starting up my own private clinic that it's right off of a dedicated bike path. So that was the whole reason I got this office Because you can bike to therapy or when you come to therapy, we're going to go for a little bit of a ride, we're going to process some stuff, we're going to talk about something. So I'm really, really excited about that. It's been something that's been on my mind for quite a while, so that's going to be fun to do a lot of that treatment that way.

Zach Goulding: 46:00

But yeah, as far as just again connecting with more people going on more rides, I mean I'm really excited. My wife and I we are planning on going to New York to the Five Burrow tour I've been hearing different things about that where it's this, how long is it? I think it's like a 40 mile ride, but it's just a leisurely ride and they shut down a bunch of the main streets in New York City and you go through all the five burrows and so we have some friends out there that they've been wanting us to come visit and it's like what better excuse than to go out and do this ride? So I'm really excited about that and just do a lot more mountain biking and but yeah, as far as the ride this out, I'm just continuing to hopefully help it grow and just to promote bicycle riding for people's overall wellness and their mental health and just connect them with a lot more people, because it's been a lot of fun.

Tom Butler: 46:47

You mentioned ridethisoutcom. What's your Instagram?

Zach Goulding: 46:51

My Instagram is ridethisout, so at ridethisout, yeah, if you find me on there, you'll you'll see a lot of my stuff that I put out there.

Tom Butler: 47:01

And I think I got a notification that you're on threads. I don't know how active you are on threads.

Zach Goulding: 47:06

Yeah, not that active. I need to do a little bit more. But one of the fun things that I do and I was doing this on on Twitter X now and I need to do it a little bit more on threads when I take a kid out for a bicycle ride who hasn't been in a long time, I'll ask him. They'll say what do you think? How's this going Like? And they give me such good one liners. I love it. You know some of them feel like oh, I feel like I'm flying or this feels great. You know, I haven't ridden a bike in years and this one teenage boy was so funny. He's like my butt hurts.

Zach Goulding: 47:38

He wasn't used to just sitting on, you know that that seat for such a long time, and I just I was laughing so hard. I was like, yeah, you know, you kind of have to build up that, that endurance for it.

Tom Butler: 47:47

So yeah, that's for sure. That's for sure. Well, zach, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your perspective. I'm looking forward to hearing more about how bikes get into your psychotherapy. I don't know if you're going to buy a tandem and do couples counseling, you know. So, looking forward to hearing more of that, and you'll have to come back on and share some other things. I'd like to have you come on and and talk about to Utah as a cycling destination place. I think there's a lot of stuff to be said about that.

Zach Goulding: 48:26

Absolutely. Yeah, I we're. I'm spoiled to live where I do because it's yeah, it's an outdoor recreation person's dream, you know I've 20 minutes from ski resorts and just amazing bike paths. Yeah, utah is I shouldn't say this to Well the secrets out. We have a bunch of people that have moved here. It's fine, it's, you know, we're welcoming, but yeah, it's great.

Tom Butler: 48:49

All right, thanks again for coming on and we'll talk again.

Zach Goulding: 48:53

Absolutely. Thank you, Tom.

Tom Butler: 48:54

Bye now. I would love to see Zach in action using the bike as part of a counseling session. I can imagine that it creates such a different atmosphere for working with adolescents and even maybe more with adults. I do believe there is something to what he talked about the bilateral movement of cycling and the rhythm of pedaling down a trail. If anybody has heard research into this aspect of cycling and mental health, I would appreciate getting a reference.

Tom Butler: 49:28

I have been struck by conversations I have with cyclists who ride events in memory of a loved one. I see it as a very therapeutic way of grieving a loss. It seems like another powerful emotional experience of cycling. I put links for Jeremy Razler and Stephen Dunn in the show notes and also a link to the Spotify site for ride this out. I hope you all are doing a better job than I am of getting out in the rain and the short daylight these days. I know some of you don't have those conditions where you are and I'm envious of you right now. But no matter where you are, keep up the pedaling for both your physical and emotional well-being and remember age is just a gear change.